ABC – 7.30
E&OE
Subjects: Drug Testing
LEIGH SALES:
The first of three locations for a controversial trial to drug test welfare recipients was announced today in Western Sydney.
The Federal Government plan will put people who test positive for drugs onto an income management system. They get most of their welfare put on a card to cover essential expenses such as rent and food, and only be given a small amount of cash.
To discuss arguments for and against the proposal, I’m joined in the studio by the Social Services Minister, Christian Porter, and Shadow Human Services Minister, Linda Burney.
Thanks very much to both of you for being here.
MINISTER PORTER:
Thank you.
LINDA BURNEY:
Thank you.
LEIGH SALES:
Christian Porter, what will you consider to be the marks of success for this trial, what would have to be the indicators to enable you to carry on with it?
MINISTER PORTER:
Yes, we’ll run an evaluation alongside the trials – and of course they’re trials – and we want to have an evidence-base to see how to proceed – there will be a number of things we measure.
But essentially we’re looking at whether or not the group who are subject to the testing perform better in terms of the number that move into employment and the speed with which they move into employment. So that would be the central measure.
LEIGH SALES:
Linda Burney, does that sound like a good plan to you?
LINDA BURNEY:
Well Labor is not going to support any of the trials. And we’re doing it on the back of very solid advice from many medical experts in the arena and practitioners in the addiction and rehabilitation space who are all saying to us that this has been a waste of time and money in other jurisdictions, including New Zealand – I’ve had a look at that as well – and they’re also saying the punitive measures behind it are not what’s needed for people that need this sort of support.
I have spoken to people out in Western Sydney, an area that I have worked in and know very well and people are saying, “We want jobs and training.” There does not need to be this punitive approach that is not going to work on the basis of medical advice.
LEIGH SALES:
Just unpack that a little bit.
Christian Porter, have you consulted medical experts and people who are experts in addiction? Because from what I have seen, they’ve said Linda Burney is correct about that.
MINISTER PORTER:
Well look there have been some experts who have been very positive.
The Royal Australian College of Physicians has said they don’t think this will work – that was of course the same body that said linking welfare payments to vaccination rates absolutely wouldn’t work and it absolutely did. So they got that 100% wrong.
What we have done is look across the spectrum and, yes, we looked internationally and what we have done is learnt internationally from what has been run, we have done something very, very different and what we’re doing here is using the welfare system to effectively mandate treatment.
Now this is not meant to be punitive in any way. So if you test positive a first time, yes you’ll go on to the income management, and have a limited amount of cash. You can then be tested again and if you test positive a second time, we will – the government – pay for a medical assessment so that you can have treatment plan devised and then your obligation as part of the conditionality of your welfare is to abide by that treatment program.
Now, we think that that is not merely non-punitive, it’s a much better approach in terms of trying to identify people with a problem and actually do something about it.
LEIGH SALES:
Linda Burney, how is that punitive, because as he’s explained they’re trying to push people into treatment?
LINDA BURNEY:
Well, that sounds all very fine. The problem is there is not one additional dollar in the health budget to provide for additional treatment beds, additional programs anywhere in the country let alone…
LEIGH SALES:
Is that true?
MINISTER PORTER:
It’s not actually correct.
LINDA BURNEY:
And the other thing, of course, is that there has been a cut to the health budget to almost a billion dollars in the area of rehabilitation.
LEIGH SALES:
Is that correct?
MINISTER PORTER:
These are actually quite small trials.
You’ll recall Leigh the Government put $685 million over four years into towards drug and alcohol rehabilitation, including $300 million specifically for ice.
As part of these trials we have chosen places with lots of on the ground service delivery. We acknowledge that because there is a slight uptake in demand, potentially, that there could be bottlenecks. We set aside $10 million specifically to deal with those bottle necks.
But in any event if there’s a waiting list for any individual who has a treatment plan devised, they’re not going to be in any way punished for being on a waiting list. What we’re trying to do is not merely advance the amount of money that’s available for the services but give people a behavioural reason, incentive to get into those services – we’re using the welfare for a lever for that.
LEIGH SALES:
Do you think that will work as an incentive?
LINDA BURNEY:
The evidence is very clear that there is not a higher evidence of drug use amongst people that are seeking employment.
MINISTER PORTER:
That’s dead wrong, Linda.
LINDA BURNEY:
That’s very clear.
And I think the other point to make is that our fear – and this is backed up by the experts as well, Leigh – is that this measure will actually push people further to the brink and will also create homelessness, it will create additional poverty and potentially higher rates of crime.
Those things need to be resolved if there is going to be any trial rolled out. And I want to know what the evidence is and why you have chosen the Canterbury-Bankstown LGA.
MINISTER PORTER:
Just on that issue – some doctors groups have said this – they maintain that there’s not incidents of higher drug use amongst unemployed Australians compared to employed Australian’s. It’s actually just wrong.
The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare which is authoritative on this, says for groups of unemployed people, the usage of a drug like ice is 2.5 times more prevalent for those who are employed. It just follows our common sense understanding of these…
LINDA BURNEY:
But why not invest in rehabilitation instead of targeting people who are needing to use the welfare system at points in their life?
MINISTER PORTER:
But we’re doing both of these things.
I think fundamentally, Linda you ascribe to the view there’s not a problem here – that the use of drugs is not more prevalent.
But it’s a common sense understanding of a situation that what happens is, we know based on authoritative data, that drug usage is more common amongst those who are unemployed. We also know it causes incredible barriers to employment. We also know, actually – in 2013 a report was delivered to your previous government, that said that when you mandate treatment, that can have very positive effects in terms of job search and job outcomes.
So we put these three things together. We want to try something new.
LEIGH SALES:
What about the other question Linda Burney asked – why have you chosen this area?
MINISTER PORTER:
Sure, there’ll be three trials.
With the Canterbury-Bankstown area, we looked for three things; one, a high volume of new entrants to the NewStart welfare system. Two, a widespread of service delivery organisations on the ground who can delve into treatment and those types of responses. And, thirdly, we looked at places where we know that there is a problem with drug use.
Now, this community is no orphan in this respect, very sadly, but we’ve got data that shows over a 6-year period, the hospitalisations due to the use of amphetamines in the relevant hospital area around Canterbury-Bankstown, increased over 2,000 per cent.
Now, that says to us as a government that we’re not doing enough and what we’re trying to do here, and we will measure it, is use the welfare system as a lever to mandate treatment. So that people can do the best to look after themselves and get the help that they need.
LEIGH SALES:
Linda Burney, if Labor doesn’t like this approach, you heard the Minister there talk about the 2000 per cent increase in hospitalisations due to ice in the area, what will Labor be doing to deal with that?
LINDA BURNEY:
I question some of those statistics.
I know is area very well and I know the medical system in the area, but Labor’s view is that there needs to be investment in programs that are proven to work, rehabilitation and not using punitive measures like those people on welfare.
I mean, we were told initially by the government, through the Senate Estimates process, that the method of selecting communities would not be what the Minister has just explained. It would be a very different method.
And it was – it would seem to us when you listen to the experts, it’s about investing in people, investing in rehabilitation and that’s not what this program is about.
LEIGH SALES:
We’re out of time, but would be good to get you both back in once we start seeing some data in.
(ENDS)