774 ABC Melbourne Drive with Rafael Epstein
E&OE
Rafael Epstein:
The Federal Government continues to grapple with the problem of terrorism. Parramatta is being described as a hot bed of Islamic extremism. The Minister who does a lot of the hard yards speaking to Muslim community leaders across the country is Senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells, she is the Assistant Minister for Multicultural Affairs. Senator, good afternoon.
Senator Fierravanti-Wells:
Good afternoon.
Rafael Epstein:
Look I want to ask you first about those descriptions of Parramatta because that 15-year-old came from Parramatta made a visit or two to that mosque. Is it particularly an issue, or is it just because it’s in a big city that has got a decent sized Islamic population?
Senator Fierravanti-Wells:
Look I think this was an incident that happened in Parramatta, there are matters that are being investigated by the New South Wales Police in relation to the shooting. I don’t really think it’s appropriate to go beyond those comments. I’m sure there are going to be other things that are going to come out of this ongoing investigation and I’m sure that the New South Wales Police will say more about those particular details.
Rafael Epstein:
So you can’t even qualify or not whether there’s a bigger issue in western Sydney?
Senator Fierravanti-Wells:
Look can I just say a couple of things. I welcome, these have been my comments today, I welcome the comments that are being made by people like Jamal Rifi. There’s an article in today’s paper, an opinion piece, saying that Muslims must tackle terror from within. What is very clear as I have travelled around the country speaking to different organisations is that yes, we need to deal with this together. There must be dialogue so we can deal with this insidious issue which is affecting young people. But dialogue is a two way street. We have to look at not only talking about the problems but owning the issue, owning the solution…
Rafael Epstein:
What does owning the problem mean Minister? I’ve heard you say dialogue is a two way street quite a few times in the last few days. There are a few editorialising that Islamic leaders need to do more. Are you endorsing that sort of description? I am not quite clear as to what you’re saying.
Senator Fierravanti-Wells:
Rafael, I am. We all have to do more. Let me just say here, with young people the thing that’s important, the people who are most likely to recognise a change in them are those people close to them. It’s their families, their brothers and sisters, their teachers, their friends, the community with which they associate. So they are at the front line of this but you also have to equip those people with the tools not only to recognise the problem but then to do something with it. At this point there are such options as the National Security Hotline and the police. What community leaders and people in the community have been saying to me is that there has to be more than that. We have to look at ways we can assist young people who are at the margins of society and look at the reason for their disengagement. Look at the reason why a young person who may have had very little exposure to religion suddenly finds themselves in this position where they go out, in a public street of Australia and murder somebody and then themselves.
Rafael Epstein:
My question about that and I’m fascinated to know because I don’t know if there is really an answer, does it actually make a difference? What the Prime Minister says, what the head of ASIO says, what a Victorian or NSW Police Chief says, what a leader of an Islamic council says? Does any of that actually impact on someone who might be prepared to do something that revolts and terrifies so many of us? Do those two things actually intersect?
Senator Fierravanti-Wells:
Let me take you back. Young people go off the rails for all sorts of reasons. And when they go off the rails they are normally at a very, very vulnerable point. So if at that particular point somebody who comes along is a drug dealer and befriends them, that young person will turn to drugs. If that person is say, a gambler, that person will turn to gambling. If that person who befriends them is involved in a gang, that young person is more likely to join that gang.
Rafael Epstein:
Isn’t that too simplistic? Doesn’t that deny that there’s a bizarre political agenda behind the violence, don’t you dismiss that with that analogy?
Senator Fierravanti-Wells:
No I’m not dismissing it. All I’m saying is that if the person that comes up to the young person who is at that very vulnerable point, puts forward to them a proposition, ‘come and join us, come and join our gang, come and travel overseas, there’s adventure, we’ll give you an AK-47, drugs and women,’ that young person who is really down and has troubles in their life, may find this friendship appealing and the allure of this appealing. I have spent time speaking with people who are helping these young people. I’ve actually spoken with young people who are assisting with peer support and this is the sort of commentary that’s coming back to me. These young people are being lured, just like paedophiles groom young people online. This is the sort of thing that we are seeing, this is what I am being told and this is how the process is working. So when these people are at their most vulnerable, if somebody preys on them deliberately and lures them to a particular course of action, they take it and that is what is happening out there.
Rafael Epstein:
Ok. Senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells is with me, she’s the Assistant Minister for Multicultural Affairs. Right now we are speaking to the Assistant Minister about what the community and the Government can do after the dreadful attack last Friday. Senator incidentally you were quoted on Friday talking about a breakdown in relationships between the Islamic community and security agencies. I just wanted to clarify, were you saying that the ‘distrust’, I think that was the word you used, was that in any way a result of Tony Abbott’s more robust language?
Senator Fierravanti-Wells:
Look language is very important but I think that what has happened is, certainly as I spoke to community groups there had been a feeling of disengagement. Dialogue, yes but not constructive in terms of working together, developing the sort of programmes that are going to be necessary to deal with the sort of issues we are facing. I think that there has been some distrust that has come in to the equation…
Rafael Epstein:
Because of Tony Abbott’s language or because of something else?
Senator Fierravanti-Wells:
This is a serious national security issue; let’s not underplay the importance of the national security component of this. My point is if we are going to look at young people and their behaviour and we want to prevent that route to radicalisation, my point is that we need to come at this from a different perspective. By all means yes, it’s very important what we are doing in the national security space but let’s look at this from the social policy perspective…
Rafael Epstein:
Forgive me Minister, I don’t like to interrupt but I don’t feel like I’ve got an answer to my question because I genuinely don’t know, if when Tony Abbott uses the words like ‘death cult’, ‘team Australia’, asking Islamic leaders to condemn radical Islam and ‘mean it’, I genuinely don’t know if the people who are running the country and that’s you, think that that was a contributor to the problem. I’d love an answer as to whether or not the rhetoric made an impact and led to distrust.
Senator Fierravanti-Wells:
Look I think that some of the language that was used by different people wasn’t felt to be appropriate by some people. Other people thought it was appropriate. Can I just say, as I’ve spoken to leaders around the country, people who are involved in the grassroots of this, Daesh is like a gang, a cult. It is luring young people to a particular course of action. Now whether you describe it as a death cult or you describe it as a cult, a gang, or whatever way you describe it, it is a horrible organisation that is luring young people. The point here is that community leaders and organisations have felt that they wanted to be part and needed to be part of the practical solutions here. One, they needed to admit there was a problem and I think Dr Rifi’s comments in The Daily Telegraph well and truly say that…
Rafael Epstein:
So you’re really actually saying that both the leadership of the Government that you are a part of and the leadership of the Islamic community in this country need to take a step up and refine their approach. Is that a fair characterisation?
Senator Fierravanti-Wells:
I think that’s a fair characterisation. We can always do better and that’s the point that I’m making here. Let’s look at this issue from the prevention perspective, let’s look at why these young people are embarking on the activities that they are embarking on and let’s look at ways that we can work with those communities. Work with the parents, the teachers and those people close to them to actually find some practical ways where we can assist. For example I’ve travelled around Australia, I’ve heard of different programmes that are being conducted around Australia, particularly stuff that’s being done peer to peer. People listen to other young people and when young people are working with other young people convincing them that this is not such a good idea for them to travel overseas, that is effective. My point is let’s look at the things that I’ve certainly seen around Australia, and they’re the practical examples that I’m certainly going to be giving to Prime Minister Turnbull and Attorney General George Brandis, ways that we can work much more constructively not just on the causes but on the outcome.
Rafael Epstein:
Well good luck, we all support your work.
Senator Fierravanti-Wells:
Thanks for your time.
[Ends]