3AW with Neil Mitchell
E&OE
MITCHELL:
Scott Morrison, good morning.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Good morning, Neil. Good to be in Melbourne.
MITCHELL:
Thank you for coming in. Will you look at introducing an activity assessment, to affect child care payments to working mothers and fathers?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well yes, that’s what the Productivity Commission has recommended and the whole point of providing support for child care is to help families be in work, stay in work, get in work. Now there’s a safety net that is required for those in disadvantaged families for whom we know early childhood education is good for them, it breaks the poverty cycle. At present, you can get 48 hours a fortnight if you’re on Child Care Benefit and not have to look for work, seek work or do any of those things so the Government is looking very favourably on those recommendations.
MITCHELL:
Would that mean the more that you work, the more you got?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Yes. That’s exactly what it means because this is about, fundamentally, workforce participation. It’s not a welfare payment; it’s not a pension or an income support payment or anything like that. The purpose of doing any of this in child care principally is to help families be in work and stay in work.
MITCHELL:
So what about the other side? What about the stay at home mum, does she get less?
MINISTER MORRISON:
No. We’re not proposing to make any–
MITCHELL:
Well she’d get less than a working mum.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well that’s because it’s an employment participation payment, but we’re not making any changes, any new measures that would affect parents who stay at home. In my experience, all mums work and they work really, really hard. Some also, a large number and an increasing number and the majority, are also in paid employment and many families, it is not a choice whether you go back to work or not, you have to, to pay the bills and that’s what these arrangements are designed to support.
MITCHELL:
Well what about the mother that stays at home and has no exterior work, what do they get?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well they don’t require child care because they’re looking after they’re children.
MITCHELL:
But they might want to put the child in care and go shopping.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well they can pay for that. That’s exactly what we did in my family, with our children, and if people are in a position to pay for their own child care and they’re not in employment, well, that is something that a family can meet the cost of and that’s how the current system should work–
MITCHELL:
Well does it?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well no, I don’t think it does. I think the activity tests currently on this are very weak; you could drive a truck through them and particularly on the Child Care Rebate which is 50% of out of pockets and for people to claim back, and that’s 50% of whatever is charged and we think that is a big weakness in the system and we do think the activity tests on providing these payments needs to be tightened up, yes.
MITCHELL:
So that in effect would mean that some mothers at home are going to lose their subsidy?
MINISTER MORRISON:
That’s about whether they decide to buy child care services, that’s not about an income support payment which is the implication of the story which is in The Australian today, which I don’t think was intended, but I think that’s the implication. There is no intention to change income support payments for stay at home parents.
MITCHELL:
No, but there is an intention to change other areas for stay at home parents subsidies?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well we’re talking about having a strong activity test when it comes to making payments for child care. The reason the–
MITCHELL:
Well that’s going to affect the stay at home mums.
MINISTER MORRISON:
No, if they decide that they want to purchase child care services then the subsidies for those that are not engaged in paid employment, unless they’re a very disadvantaged family, won’t be the same–
MITCHELL:
But they’re getting it at the moment.
MINISTER MORRISON:
–and I think that’s a fair deal.
MITCHELL:
But some of them are getting it at the moment, aren’t they?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well that’s a choice about whether they want to purchase a service and whether there’s a subsidy for that service, and what we’re saying is, if you want to access a child care subsidy then the whole point of the taxpayer providing it, is to help you be in work. Now families can decide whether they want to stay at home and look after their kids or be in paid employment, that’s their choice and we don’t want to get in the middle of that choice.
MITCHELL:
After the Budget, will there be people, families, at the moment getting subsidies for child care who won’t?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well experience will tell on that and it depends on what people decide to do–
MITCHELL:
Well it’s possible. Well if you change the system there’s going to be fewer getting it.
MINISTER MORRISON:
But people may change their behaviour too, Neil, and what we want to encourage people to do, if they want to access these services and they want to get a subsidy for having their children in child care then what we’re saying is, we want to encourage you into work.
MITCHELL:
And if you don’t go into work, you don’t get it?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well that is the whole point of the system with a safety net though. I need to stress this there are families for whom we will continue to ensure that there is a level of childcare and more importantly early childhood learning that will support those children. We are not looking to remove that but we are looking to have an activity test which is about ensuring the taxpayers who have to foot the bill for this understand why we are doing it and that is to help people stay in work because if you are in work then they won’t be and particularly for lower income and middle income families not going to spend a life on welfare which will cost them far more.
MITCHELL:
And the bottom line on this though is that the assistance for childcare will be tougher to get?
MINISTER MORRISON:
As it should be, I mean any…
MITCHELL:
But it will be after the budget, correct?
MINISTER MORRISON:
…any, any government payment needs to have strong tests around it. What I am trying to do as the Minister for Social Services is make sure the bill that we pay each year $150 billion, eight out of ten income taxpayers required to go to work to pay for that bill every day that that money is best spent and best targeted and I don’t think the current system is and that is what we are proposing to change.
MITCHELL:
I am not arguing whether it should be I am saying it will be after the budget – it will be tougher.
MINISTER MORRISON:
The integrity tests around this, the entitlements around this we are looking to make tougher to ensure that is does the job and we just don’t splash cash.
MITCHELL:
What about subsidies for nannies, there was speculation on that earlier in the week.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well we made an announcement that we are going to have a trial programme, a pilot programme over two years. $246 million and that is designed principally to deal with people in shift work, police officers, those working in the fire brigades, ambulance officers, those who can’t access current mainstream services. So this was identified as a big gap. You have got people who are working who get access to subsidies because they can access mainstream childcare. You have got others who are working, doing very important jobs who don’t and we think that needs to be fixed.
MITCHELL:
If you would like to speak to the Minister 96900 693 – 131332. If you don’t mind putting the headphones on, I hope they are plugged in, yes. Yvonne, go ahead please.
CALLER:
Good morning Mr Morrison. Are you implying that stay at home mothers don’t work?
MINISTER MORRISON:
No.
CALLER:
I have five children, they are all grown up, I was involved with three different schools, I was involved with Scouts, bla bla bla, and you are telling me I don’t work?
MITCHELL:
No, that is not what he said in fairness. But Yvonne did you get a subsidy for childcare?
CALLER:
About $50 a month for five kids.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Yvonne, I couldn’t agree more. My wife works harder than me and she is a stay at home mum. All mums work we all know that and this is about whether mums are in the workforce, in paid employment I should stress, and where they are in that situation then they obviously need childcare support to ensure that they can be in paid employment and as you would know many families – they just have to be in work.
MITCHELL:
So in very simple terms is the principle here if you are in work you get government assistance with childcare, if you are not in some sort of paid work you don’t?
MINISTER MORRISON:
That is what the childcare support is for.
MITCHELL:
But as you say that is not what happens at the moment.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well that is because there are integrity problems with the current system and because it has creeped over years and years and years and has built up as some sort of income entitlement rather than being what it was intended for and that is to support families where they have to be in paid employment, want to be in paid employment, to be able to go and do that.
MITCHELL:
So do you reckon I will be sitting here the day of the budget and have mums ringing up screaming at me that they are losing their subsidies?
MINISTER MORRISON:
No, I don’t believe you will necessarily. It all depends what choices families make and if families are in work and wanting to be in work and in paid employment then there will be support for them.
MITCHELL:
And people at the moment who are getting some support will not have it?
MINISTER MORRISON:
They may choose now, those who are currently just taking a benefit in this area and not in paid employment they may choose to go and do just that, find a job.
MITCHELL:
96900 693 – 131332 if you would like to speak to the Minister. We will take a quick break and come back with calls, more questions in a moment.
[ad break]
MITCHELL:
Hulk Hogan coming up after ten. Minister you would be a big Hulk Hogan fan wouldn’t you?
MINISTER MORRISON:
I remember him, Andre the Giant, Jesse Ventura a long time ago but it is good to see him still kicking around.
MITCHELL:
Well he is in Melbourne. I don’t think he will be doing much wrestling. We will take another call for the Minister. Nigel, hello.
CALLER:
Hi Minister and Neil how are you?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Good thanks Nigel.
CALLER:
That’s good. I am a single dad of three children. I work full time. Currently I am lucky enough to have the 13 weeks special benefit to cover my child care fees but when that finishes in a couple of weeks’ time I have to pay $306 a week to send my children to child care.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Is this for the occasional care or are you talking about the kindergarten arrangements?
CALLER:
Well I have one child in kindergarten and long day care at the same place, one child does before and after school care and goes to school and one child is [inaudible] child care. So I get the rebate and everything else but $306 a week I really cannot afford. I am only on $42,000 a year.
MITCHELL:
So what is your question Nigel is it, is there anything else you can do?
CALLER:
Is there anything coming in this Budget that is going to help people like me?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well we are looking to increase the support for child care for those on middle to low income families and one of the real positive things over the last ten years is that the number of single parent families where that parent is in work is now more than half, sadly though there are still some 400,000 single parent families where the parent isn’t in work and that’s one of the things we want to change and we hope that the increased investment we are looking to make in child care support will change that figure even further.
We are however announcing today with the Victorian State Government though, $4.7 million which will provide occasional care support for some 117 services here throughout Victoria in areas where there’s great need for that occasional care that may assist you in these circumstances. That’s part of an $8.5 billion package and that’s part of the election commitment–
MITCHELL:
Million.
MINISTER MORRISON:
–Million, sorry, yes. Sorry, thank you.
MITCHELL:
Joe Hockey’s just had a heart attack. $8.56 million over four years; what is occasional care?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Occasional care is not part of the regular sort of care that someone gets in a long day care centre or a regular I get these three hours before school or after school. This helps people who are in a need to have children looked after for a period of time during the course of the day to go to a doctor’s appointment, to go to a job interview, to do something like that and you know, they don’t have a scheduled set of care that they can get access to so it deals with those more urgent circumstances.
MITCHELL:
We get reports of people putting children in child care for 12 or 14 hours a day, which can’t be good for the kids. Would you look at restricting the number of hours a day that you could subsidise your allowances for?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well it’s currently 12 hours, that’s how long they operate for and the vast majority of parents don’t use all of those 12 hours.
MITCHELL:
Is that too long?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well the experience by the parents is that they don’t use that amount, it can be up to that amount, but by the time 6pm comes or the time 6am starts; there are not lines at the gate.
MITCHELL:
But would you look at varying that and say you can’t have 12 hours?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well that’s a matter for states at the end of the day, Neil, they regulate I should stress states regulate the number of staff to children in the centres, they regulate whether they should have qualifications or not; all of the quality issues are regulated by the states and that regulation has increased and that’s pushing up the costs.
MITCHELL:
Amy, go ahead please.
CALLER:
Oh hi there yeah, I was just calling because I wanted to comment and make the point that Mr Morrison you clearly need to go back to school and look at your history books, because actually taxation isn’t about keeping parents in the workforce, it’s about the roots of taxation are in the whole concept of keeping children in education and it’s all based around the welfare of children. You tax the adult population to provide welfare for the children by providing things like education and just you know, support outside of schools.
MITCHELL:
So you’re saying taxation is there for the welfare of the child, maybe child care is there for the welfare of the child, Minister?
MINISTER MORRISON:
The state governments run school systems, not the Federal Government and the reason why the Federal Government got into this whole area in the first place was because we were trying to assist parents to be in work and stay in work and I should stress also, the activity test also covers volunteering, where people are engaged in formal volunteering, if they’re engaged in that then they’ll have an eligibility. So I’m not making an argument about how taxes get spent more broadly but it’s the state governments that run the education system, we’re not trying to run an education system here, we’re trying to provide a payment to help people be in work and stay in work which means they are then participating in the economy which is good for the economy and they’re also paying taxes which support these varied types of initiatives that you talk about.
MITCHELL:
Thank you, Amy. Also on the Budget, pensioners; no go zone?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well we have measures from the last Budget and we’ve been working through those issues with the crossbench and with other stakeholders like National Seniors and COTA and we’ll have a bit more to say about that between now and/or in the Budget. But it is necessary that we have a sustainable age pension, it’s the biggest area of payment and we want to make sure that that’s sustainable for the future.
MITCHELL:
Well as you say there are measures there that still aren’t through but put it this way, will there be any surprises for pensioners in the Budget?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well we’ll make announcements when we’re in a position to make those announcements but what is clear is that the indexation measures that were in last year’s Budget, they haven’t passed the Senate. The Government, I’ve always said, is not going to take something off the table unless we put something on the table and that’s something we’ve been working through now for some months and when we arrive at a point on that then we’d obviously make some announcements.
MITCHELL:
What’s your view of the principle of means testing anything, any of your welfare payments, including child care?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well the principle is this; welfare, the safety net is there for people in need, it’s not an entitlement, it’s not there to provide an incentive, it’s there to ensure that people in great need have the support they need to get through each day. Means testing means that as people have greater means themselves then they will be in a position to support themselves.
MITCHELL:
Have we got it right yet?
MINISTER MORRISON:
No I don’t think we ultimately have. I think in comparison to other countries we do a very good job in this area and we are a bit of a leading light I think around the world, but I wouldn’t say we’ve got it right. We still have many element of our welfare system which are basically used as an incentive rather than a safety net, my own view is…
MITCHELL:
What areas?
MINISTER MORRISON:
My own view is that the superannuation system, for example, meant I don’t want to tax people more when they’re basically investing for their own future and ensuring that they are not going to be on the tax payer in terms of a pension in the future. I think that’s something that should be rewarded. That’s why I think Chris Bowen’s idea, frankly, of getting rid of negative gearing and taxing superannuation incomes, is a bad idea, I don’t support it because that’s taking away incentives for people to actually provide for themselves. But where we have pension systems and where we have other welfare payment systems that extending beyond the reach of what really goes to entitlement rather than need then I think that’s where we have got to tighten things up. That’s what we’re seeking to do around childcare, that’s what I’m seeking to do around a whole range of various…
MITCHELL:
What other areas?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Because we do spend a lot of money, we spend a lot of money…
MITCHELL:
What other areas are you trying to tighten up?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well whether – we already are on the DSP, for example, that’s another area where we’ve been tightening the system ever since we came into Government and we’ll continue to do that. But we need to tighten things on the basis of need not entitlement. There is still quite a lot of entitlement in the system and when you are spending $150 billion a year and it’s growing at around 4-6% depending on which payment you are looking at you’ve got to get that under control and you do that by spending it better.
MITCHELL:
Will we see changes in that area in the Budget? In the area of, as you say entitlement or in means testing?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well in the area of childcare we’ve already talked about and we’ve already touched on whether there’s something that comes on the table for something that goes off the table in relation to the pension. In the DSP we already have a range of reforms that are there and in the last budget we had quite a number of changes to Family Tax Benefits and we’re obviously continuing with those changes so, this Government has put a lot on the table in terms of trying to get the welfare system under control. The Labor Party has voted against us, the Greens have voted against us. No surprise that they’re in coalition on those sorts of things.
MITCHELL:
Just a couple of other areas, Julie Bishop was suggesting though it’s time for a debate about ending the death penalty in Asia. Do you think we can lead the debate on getting rid of capital punishment?
MINISTER MORRISON:
I think Australians, and I in particularly and every politician I know is against the death penalty. I mean it’s something we got rid of in this country a long time ago. I really think that the death penalty does no credit to any nation that pursues it. That’s I think a generally well held view in this country. Whether we’re in a position to lecture other countries about this well I’ll leave that to others, but look I think we’ve got to encourage all countries in our region to take on the sort of position which reflects I think a more progressive view.
MITCHELL:
Would it be unusual, now this isn’t in your area, but would it be unusual for a Federal Government to but in $1.5 billion in funding for a road where the State Government isn’t putting anything in.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well you’d have to be more specific.
MITCHELL:
Alright, well the proposition from TransUrban here is for this Western Tunnel and elevated road, total cost $5.5 billion, the State Government wants $1.5 billion from the Federal Government but there’d be no State money into it and the rest would be paid by private enterprise.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well, we have an asset recycling fund. We also were going to pay and support the Victorian Government for the East West Link. What that project sounds like is half of the East West Link which the State Government who said they didn’t want to build it now want it built. So I think there’s some explaining to do. We had the obscene proposition a few weeks ago where we had hundreds of millions of dollars being paid out for someone not to build a road. So that seems to be the policy in Victoria under the State Labor Government. We will look at infrastructure measures on their merits and I know that’s what Warren Truss is doing and Jamie Briggs is doing. And we want to see jobs in infrastructure and that’s why we were so disappointed that the Andrews Government here paid more money not to build a road than to build one.
MITCHELL:
Can you fix the tax system, we’ve got the income tax going up 7.5% a year, which is well ahead of the inflation rate, we’ve got 700,000 people going into higher tax brackets through bracket creep and we’re going to get more taxes, can’t you do something about tax?
MINISTER MORRISON:
This really does trouble us and that’s why we’re doing the work we are on Budget repair and that’s why it’s necessary to get the savings through and when we’re unable to do that then obviously that puts constraints on solving that exact problem Neil and that’s why we feel so strongly in having lower taxes but to get the lower taxes the thing we can control most at the moment is expenditure and we want the support of the Opposition to do that.
MITCHELL:
Thank you very much for coming in.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Thanks a lot Neil, good to be with you.