Radio interview, NDIS
E&OE
RAY HADLEY:
I spoke in great detail yesterday about the potential for the NDIS to be exploited.
Now, the $22 billion National Insurance Disability Scheme was introduced by the Labor-Gillard Government back in 2012. By the time it’s finished rolling out across Australia by 2020, it will support about 460,000 people with disabilities. And the workforce in the disability sector will at least double – whether those people are equipped to do what their supposedly trained to do will be another matter.
But there are grave concerns about the NDIS over the likelihood less experienced, less qualified staff and even dodgy operators could pour into the disability sector. Now disability providers are being told the only way services can continue on budget is to cut staff costs, including training and supervision. I’ve described the scheme here as pink bats on steroids.
I spoke to Daryl yesterday, who self manages his NDIS rather than relying on a provider. This is what he had to say:
DARYL:
The way it works Ray is you get a budget and within that budget there are certain buckets of money for different types of things. And then, as long as the amount that you’re claiming is within that bucket, then – well so far for us anyway – no one’s asked me any questions, and I’ve bought a couple of decent spends on equipment. One was, I think, about $11,000, another one was $9,500 – so real money, and they’ve just been paid.
I couldn’t expense a packet of chewing gum without a receipt in any company I’ve ever worked for, and I pointed that out to them – I said, surely, there’s a facility on the website to upload documents, surely you want us to do that. And they said, oh no, what happens is at some point you may be audited, so you need to keep all your receipts and when we audit you, you better have them
RAY HADLEY:
Well, Daryl’s honesty was absolutely breathtaking. His son has cerebral palsy, he’s never been asked for receipts when claiming for the NDIS, even for large items – $9,000, $11,000. The lack of checks and balances of the quality of the disability workforce – administration of the NDIS is being described as urbanisation or uberisation of the sector I should say – uberisation of the sector.
The man responsible for the rollout of the NDIS is the Minister for Social Services, Christian Porter, and he’s on the line right now from Canberra. Minister, good morning.
MINISTER PORTER:
Good morning to you Ray.
RAY HADLEY:
I’m terrified. I sat in this same chair during the Rudd days of the pink batts – the BER – I saw in the pink batts, people just decide all of a sudden they’d stop being truck drivers and become installers of pink batts because all they had to do was stump up and they’d get as much money as they wanted. As a result billions was stolen from the Federal Government, we’ve got no hope of getting it back, they’ve disappeared from view – you know, people go to country towns in white vans full of pink batts, being paid by the government, now disappear from you. I’m terrified the same things going to happen here, based on that conversation with Daryl, Minister, and many others I got yesterday from other listeners.
MINISTER PORTER:
So, and look you can add, Ray, to your list, Labor’s performance on vocational education and training, Labor’s performance on child care and particularly family day care – which under their governance got rorted very, very badly and has been fixed by us.
I must say, as the Minister in charge of implementing the NDIS, it is a very challenging process, so we move from 30,000 in trials over the next three years up to 460,000.
Thank you for playing Daryl’s audio, perhaps if I can give a brief explanation about that situation: inside the NDIS there’ll be two groups of people, one group of people – for whom Daryl’s son seems to be one of – are what we would describe as self-managed, and that is a very, very small group, about 1.8 per cent of the total. The rest of the people inside the NDIS at present – so about 98.2 per cent – are managed by the NDIA, so their plans are managed by the NDIA. And in that case, the National Disability Insurance Agency engages on behalf of the person with a disability with the service providers, with the people providing the assistive technology, whatever that might be. So certainly, it’s not a system that can never be defrauded when it’s managed by the NDIA, but because it’s managed at arm’s length, that can much better managed…
RAY HADLEY:
No. No, Minister, stop there. Stop there. Ok.
We take the point its 1.8 per cent Daryl. Ok. Let me assure you, let me assure you, the growth industry in Australia at the moment – because you’re throwing $22 billion at this – are these NGO’s. Now if you think the NDIA, implementing the NDIS, is not going to throw money at the NGO’s who are going to queue up from here to the back of Bourke to put their paws out, you’re sadly mistaken.
I’ve got email after email after email from people who make up that 98.2 per cent, who tell me exactly the same thing. Now, I’ll give you an indication -I spoke yesterday to the sister of a physically and intellectually disabled woman who has been allegedly raped by a man who’s in custody at Silverwater Jail.
Ok, she’s under the NDIS, her sister has charge of all her affairs. This lady, a 62 year old, with severe impairments was placed in a group home where she was worried about using a lift – so when they went to talk to NGO about her sister being involved in this, everything was hunky dory – oh look, it’s fantastic, we’re going to look after her, we’ll have the best people in the world looking after your sister – making people feel calm. Two things happened, she was only raped, allegedly, by a bloke in custody, she was examined by the people from the NGO, she told them she was raped they made no attempt to contact police; it was week later a doctor became involved because these people were not trained as they should have been. Point one, and these people work for Mission Australia, one of the larger NGO’s.
Point number two, the woman then phoned her sister because she was confused about using a lift in the facility. The sister phoned the NGO, who she’d spoken to, who bent over backwards to get her into the system and said, oh you realise every time you phone me it’s going to cost you money? What sort of system is this?
MINISTER PORTER:
That system is inadequate. That system however is a system which, at present, in terms of the quality and safeguards of providers in the disability sector is a state-based system.
Now the point of the NDIS is that next year, the quality and safeguards – so if you like, the checking of the appropriateness, the level of efficiency, the quality, the probity of all the service providers – becomes the responsibility of the Commonwealth.
So, in this very budget that was just handed down, there’s $209 million set aside for establishing what will be an entirely new government agency – a bit like, if you like, the ombudsman – but an agency which is entirely directed to the purpose of ensuring that the quality, the probity and the standard of people and service deliverers is appropriate.
Now we assume that responsibility of the Commonwealth next year.
Ray, as you point out, there have been some issues in this area, and I’m very sad to hear that story that you’ve just said, and we will look into that individually on part of the NDIS and the Government, but there have been some major problems in sectors in Victoria and other places around Australia, but up until the point that we reach next year, that’s been a state-based responsibility. But that system is about to change root and branch, and it will be the job of this Government to implement the NDIS in a way that avoids those sorts of problems that you’re discussing.
RAY HADLEY:
Minister, you’re not suggesting that a much smaller operation run by a state is all of a sudden going to become much more streamlined because it falls under federal control -that’s where the abuse will be multiplied…
MINISTER PORTER:
Perhaps with proper investment in this area Ray…
RAY HADLEY:
There’s proper investment in child care and you know, groups of international gangs stole hundreds of millions of dollars – they’re being prosecuted at the moment – to send to ISIS.
MINISTER PORTER:
Sure, but have a look at this right – the former Labor Government…
RAY HADLEY:
No, no, hang on. Minister you’ve been there too long to keep blaming them. You’ve been there too long.
MINISTER PORTER:
I’ve been on radio with you long enough to at least get a sentence in mate. Under the previous Labor Government, in the critical two years, they ran 523 compliance checks in child care. Last financial year, we ran 3,100, and that’s why we’re saving upwards of a billion dollars in taxpayer’s money, because we are auditing, having appropriate systems in place in child care and family day care – making sure compliance works, locking down the fraud and saving the taxpayer money.
Now, the fact is, that if you make a comparative analysis between our performance in VET and in childcare compared to the previous governments, who were hopeless, we come out miles on top. Because, we’re actually interested in stringency and compliance, and quality and safeguards, and we will do the same thing with the NDIS, and you will find that when that reverts to Commonwealth control, and Coalition control next year, the system will be radically improved.
RAY HADLEY:
Just in relation to your comment about me interrupting you – in your old life you were on the floor of a court. Just pretend for this case, I’m the judge and I’m running the show.
MINISTER PORTER:
You don’t have a lifetime pension do you?
RAY HADLEY:
No, I don’t. I work every day of my life to get where I am. It’s important that I point out to people that you’re Government has been there for an extended period, and I can get the violin out if I get every Minister on who starts to blame what’s happening in 2017, on a Labor Government that hasn’t been there for a long time. Now I take your point…
MINISTER PORTER:
It’s not blaming. Having a comparison between how much better we’re doing to how rubbish the system was previously – surely that’s…
RAY HADLEY:
The woman was only raped, allegedly, when your Government was in power. Ok, so we can’t attribute the deficiencies in Mission Australia to the Labor Government, either Gillard or Rudd, we can’t do that.
MINISTER PORTER:
But this was a NSW case, that’s correct?
RAY HADLEY:
The point I make is please don’t just suggest to my listeners, because they’re not imbeciles, that just all of a sudden because the federal government will take over in 2018, the panacea will be there for this all to be solved.
MINISTER PORTER:
I’m not suggesting it’s a panacea, but what I’m pointing out is, that at the moment those regulatory frameworks about service provision in disability care are solely the responsibility of state governments. Now that changes fundamentally next year, and it has been an area, that I’d also say, has been under-invested in across Australia in the states for a long time. And we are putting our money where our mouth is, there’s $209 million in this budget to set up what will be the new regulatory framework.
And the point about regulation quality safeguard assurance probity is when you actually do spend money on it, when you have an agency that is responsible for it, and centrally responsible for it, and your eye is on that ball, you can actually make very significant improvements here. Certainly that’s what we’re intending to do.
RAY HADLEY:
Well I’ll conclude by saying I know your intentions are best suited to the poor people with a disability, I just hope you’re not disappointed by the NGO’s that you deal with.
Thanks for your time.
MINISTER PORTER:
Thank you, Ray. Cheers.