Transcript by The Hon Alan Tudge MP

ABC Melbourne “Fight Club”

E&OE…

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Here in the studio, the ALP member for the seat of Hotham, Clare O’Neil. Clare, thank you for coming in.

CLARE O’NEIL:

It is great to be here Raf and happy new year to you and your listeners.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Thank you. Alan Tudge joins us in Canberra, I haven’t asked – but perhaps because there is a Cabinet meeting tomorrow. He is the Liberal member for the seat of Aston here in Melbourne. He is also Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, Malcolm Turnbull. Alan Tudge, good afternoon.

ALAN TUDGE:

G’day Raf, g’day Clare.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

I just want to get a quick feel from both of you, I did practically nothing yesterday on Australia Day, but I get the feeling MPs do more than I did. Where were you yesterday, Alan, for Australia Day?

ALAN TUDGE:

I was in my electorate all day and had a number of events starting from a local Australia Day awards ceremony where we recognized some just incredible contributors locally. Then I dropped into some retirement village who have some big Australia Day lunches going on.

And I finished up with a citizenship ceremony in the afternoon where we welcomed about 150 new citizens to this country, who are proud as punch to become Aussies on Australia Day. So it is a terrific day from our perspective.

The sun was shining, everyone was out and about enjoying themselves and it is certainly great to welcome those new Australians on Australia Day.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

It is a particular joy, a citizenship ceremony. Clare, where were you yesterday?

CLARE O’NEIL:

I was out and about in the electorate, just like Alan, and pretty much doing the same thing. Just backing in what Alan said to participate in citizenship ceremonies on Australia Day is one of the most extraordinary privileges of being a Member of Parliament.

Just to see the relief and elation on people’s faces to get that citizenship certificate after what has been, for some, a decade long journey is such a fantastic opportunity. It was a great day.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

I have still only been to a few and at both, they handed them a wattle as well, with the certificate. Does that always happen?

CLARE O’NEIL:

Yeah, no the councils all do it in their own different way. But usually they will get a native Australian plant, a certificate and a few other little bits and pieces like that. It is a great experience.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

I quite like that. Alan, is it de rigueur in the seat of Aston to hand out Australian plants with citizenship?

ALAN TUDGE:

It is. They get all sorts of little gifts actually…

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Plastic koala?

ALAN TUDGE:

What do they get? I think a little badge, a flag, even a bookmark, which has the affirmation on the bookmark. Of course with their formal certificate as well.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

You’ve got to have something to stick in the bedside table drawer. Okay, let’s find out whether we will get a national vote on the republic at some time before the end of the Queen’s reign.

The Prime Minister, Malcolm Turnbull, while being at the forefront of the last referendum, is not too keen on another.

MALCOLM TURNBULL:

I’ve led a ‘yes’ case for a republic into a heroic defeat once. I’ve got no desire to do so again.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Alan Tudge, is it logical to put this decision off until the end of the Queen’s reign?

ALAN TUDGE:

I think it is. The important thing is that this becomes a grassroots movement, rather than a top-down movement.

I think that when we reflect back on the 1999 republican referendum part of the problem then, and I am a republican, was that it was largely led by the leaders of the country and the ‘elite’ if you like, rather than it being a very strong grassroots movement.

I think, as Prime Minister Turnbull has said, there is even less momentum for a republic now then there was back in 1999 at the grassroots level. I think we have to wait for that to come and I am not convinced that that will come until the end of the Queen’s reign.

Then, I think there will be a big discussion about whether that is the appropriate opportunity to reignite that debate and perhaps have a further referendum.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

And the new monarch wouldn’t see that as an insult?

ALAN TUDGE:

At the end of the day, it is up to Australia in terms of what we decide to do. But the Queen has been a remarkable figure for Australia and for so many Australians over literally decades and I think she is very well loved, I think she is remarkably well respected.

For many people, she has been the only, or one of the very few constants in their lives over a period of incredible change over the last 50 odd years. Consequently, while she is still the monarch, I think that any referendum question would not succeed and I don’t think there would be the momentum to have a referendum question.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Clare?

CLARE O’NEIL:

I don’t agree actually there Alan. I think this Australia Day was the first I’ve seen for a long, long time where I have felt a real appetite on the part of the Australian people to start to talk about some of these issues.

We have seen a really rich discussion occurring about how we better accommodate Indigenous people into Australia Day and respect their contribution. We have seen a real discussion about the flag and as well, the Australian republic – all these related issues.

I think what we are seeing for the first time in my living memory is real momentum on the part of ordinary Australians to drive this movement and this is a great opportunity for us. I was devastated, as a republican, to see Malcolm Turnbull really step back from that.

For the first time this is coming directly from Australians and he is saying no, let’s wait, let’s not take that opportunity.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

It’s a bit hypocritical of Labor isn’t it? Six years of Labor government, there was not a single step taken towards this decision. It is easy to say from opposition is it?

CLARE O’NEIL:

I don’t think it is hypocritical Raf, because Alan is right, this has got to come from Australians. One thing I know about social change is that it comes through momentum. That momentum can’t just be created by political leaders because they desire something to happen.

It has to bubble up from the community and this is what we are seeing for the first time – an extraordinary opportunity to have this conversation as a country, and yet, Malcolm Turnbull has just turned his back on it.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Is it a priority though? I will ask Alan this as well, but I know it is an important issue for many people. Is it at the top of the list for most people?

CLARE O’NEIL:

I think we need to be careful to distinguish between things that are urgent and things that are really important. I think the republic is incredibly important.

There is nothing more critical for us to do as a country than to think and talk about what our values are, what binds us as Australians and how we present ourselves to the rest of the world.

Is it urgent? Maybe we won’t get to see dramatic change if we don’t become a republic next year or the year after, but I think as politicians, we need to be able to have both discussions at the same time.

We can talk about the Coalition’s plan to increase the GST at the same time as we can talk about these issues of national identity.

ALAN TUDGE:

You snuck that one in there nicely, didn’t you Clare?

CLARE O’NEIL:

I thought you weren’t going to notice Alan.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Alan, you said you were a republican, is it a priority for most do you think?

ALAN TUDGE:

I don’t think it is Raf, and I have got to say over Australia Day, — and I had conversations with hundreds of people – I don’t think anybody raised it with me. I just do not sense that there is this groundswell movement at the moment.

I think from the Australian people’s perspective and the government’s perspective; Malcolm Turnbull is right in saying it is just not the right time. It is not the priority for Australia at the moment; it is not the priority for this government.

You want to be very careful if you embark on this path; that you don’t set up a process for failure. We know how damned difficult it is to get a referendum up. Eight out of 44 referendum questions have gotten up. The last one was in 1977 and it was on the very uncontroversial topic of retirement ages of judges. The last substantive referendum question that got up was the 1967 Indigenous referendum question. That is almost 50 years ago now. These are very difficult questions to get up.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Interesting system we’ve got isn’t it.

ALAN TUDGE:

It does need to have that real grassroots support and I just don’t think it is there yet.

CLARE O’NEIL:

It is worth mentioning that there is an alternative explanation for all of this and that is despite Malcolm Turnbull’s professed interest in seeing a republic, he is just constrained by the same constraints that faced Tony Abbott.

That is a party room that will just not allow him to pursue these things that he holds in such high conviction. We see it on climate change, we see it on marriage equality and now we see it on the referendum. I do think that is a little disappointing.

I think people expected…

ALAN TUDGE:

I didn’t realise you are such an expert on our party room, Clare! That is very interesting. I should speak to you more often about our party room.

CLARE O’NEIL:

I do spend two dozen weeks here in Canberra.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

You don’t need to be inside the party room to see those tensions.

CLARE O’NEIL:

Yeah, exactly.

ALAN TUDGE:

I can tell you this; there is no person in the entire parliament who has dedicated more of his or her life towards Australia becoming a republic than Malcolm Turnbull, himself. He is still incredibly committed to it.

CLARE O’NEIL:

But the opportunity is there and he is turning his back.

ALAN TUDGE:

No, no, he is not turning his back. I think he is spot on in terms of saying there is no grassroots momentum yet and until the end of the Queen’s reign it is very unlikely that there will be and I just think that is a sensible position.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

It is a quarter to five, on 774 ABC Melbourne. That is Alan Tudge, Assistant Minister in Malcolm Turnbull’s government. Clare O’Neil is with me as well, Labor backbencher and sometime author with another of her Labor colleagues.

1300 222 774 if you have got a question or a comment for Clare or Alan. Alan, while we are talking about votes, I think your party room spent six hours coming up with a solution to the same sex marriage issue.

You decided on a plebiscite after the election. Is Eric Abetz, former senior minister in Tony Abbott’s government, is he right when he says, listen I don’t necessarily need to follow the direction given by a national plebiscite. Is that the right position to take?

ALAN TUDGE:

Well the mechanics of how the plebiscite is going to work and how it will bind individual members of parliament will be considered by the Cabinet and indeed, our party room over the next few months.

I suppose, what I would say, is that you would be a very brave politician to vote against the wishes of the Australian people as indicated through a plebiscite.

We will go through the whole exercise: all the expense, all of the national attention of a plebiscite in order to gauge public opinion; in order to give every single person an opportunity to have his or her say. At the end of that…

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Eric Abetz is wrong, is what you are saying.?

ALAN TUDGE:

At the end of the day, I think…. I certainly will be abiding by the outcome of the plebiscite. That is why we are doing it, and I am a person who has traditionally held the view that marriage is between a man and a woman. But if a plebiscite gets up and the Australian people want same-sex marriage, I will support same sex-marriage in the parliament.

I can guarantee you Raf, if the referendum question gets up, it will go through the parliament. It will go through the House, it will go through the Senate because there will be enough members of parliament, like myself, who will endorse the wishes of the Australian people.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

That is interesting because I am interested, I guess, because you have got to be true to your conscience, but you also have to be a representative of the people. If there was a plebiscite, you would vote against your own personal views?

ALAN TUDGE:

I would because that is the decision we made as a party room. We had lots of different choices to take this issue forward: we could just have had a party room vote (which we have traditionally had); we could have had a conscience vote (which the Labor Party now has) or we could have a plebiscite.

We decided to have a plebiscite so that every single individual can have their say and therefore, for me at least, I will listen to the outcome of that plebiscite and vote accordingly in order to implement the wishes of the Australian people.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

I just want to have a chat to Ray in Keilor East. What did you want to have a chat to us about Ray?

CALLER RAY:

Hi, I just wanted to ask the lady member for Hotham… Is it Hotham or Hothlyn?

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Hotham, as in the mountain.

CALLER RAY:

Okay, Hotham, cool. By the way, I am ambivalent about party of choice. I was Labor for Bill Shorten until recently, and until Turnbull took over, I am happy with him.

What damage would be done, lady member…

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Her name is Clare.

CALLER RAY:

… if you went to a referendum before you are ready and it gets knocked back, how many years would that cost you? I am a traditionalist. I am 72, I waved to the Queen at the Town Hall in Moonee Ponds in 1954.

I remember Menzies saying I did but see her passing by, yet I will love her till I die. I love the flag with the Union Jack, I am on the pension. There is millions like me here, and that’s who you’re up against love.

CLARE O’NEIL:

Ray, thanks for calling in, and I really respect your views though they differ a great deal from mine. I think what you’re saying is right. If we have a referendum and it doesn’t succeed, then it is going to be a long time before we can have another go at this.

I am not suggesting any specific timeline for a referendum, but only pointing out that when I speak to the thousands of people that I represent in Hotham, I am sensing a real desire to talk about what it means to be an Australian and whether it is appropriate that we are ruled by a monarch from 17,000 km away and who lives in a palace in London.

Lots of Australians don’t think that is appropriate and I think they are entitled to have that national discussion and eventually put their views again at a referendum.

CALLER RAY:

I totally agree, I think that is quite appropriate.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Ray, quick question, did the Queen wave back?

CALLER RAY:

Yes she did, in that circular fashion with charm to all us lovely people and takes us all in.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Thank you so much, we will continue with Alan Tudge and Clare O’Neil including the fascinating question, why is Tony Abbott sticking around in parliament? I am sure he will be re-elected at the election as the local member for Warringah.

[INTERMISSION]

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Clare O’Neil and Alan Tudge are with me.

Alan Tudge, where do I start with Tony Abbott? Let me ask you this first of all Alan Tudge. The Alliance Defending Freedom that Tony Abbott is going to speak to in the US, they actually have actively argued against the decriminalisation of homosexuality in places like Jamaica, India and Belize. Personally I think Tony Abbott should go and speak to whomever he wishes to go and speak to. Is that a problem for the Government if the former prime minister is going to speak to a group that actually opposes the decriminalisation of homosexuality?

ALAN TUDGE:

I don’t think it is. Tony Abbott himself doesn’t believe in that. He’s going across to the United States to speak at that organisation. From what I understand, that organisation is a conservative religious organisation. It largely fights for religious freedoms, is pro traditional marriage, it tends to be anti-abortion….views which many Americans hold; which many Australians hold.

I think Tony Abbott’s still got a lot to offer the Australian Parliament. He’s been a member now for 20 years, he wants to be re-elected to his local electorate and continue to serve his local electorate. I think he has an enormous amount to offer the Parliament and the Australian community.

I fully welcome him staying on as a Member of Parliament and contributing to the public debate.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

No-one in the Government is nervous about him staying on?

ALAN TUDGE:

I don’t think so. It’s interesting too Raf, I understand that before Robert Menzies, it was actually not uncommon for ex-prime minister’s to stay on and to continue to contribute to the Parliament and to mentor and support new members of parliament.

In the UK it’s very common. I think Winston Churchill did that. I understand that Gordon Brown and even Margaret Thatcher even stayed on after their prime ministership…

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Gordon Brown did it and there was no trouble. He’d done all the trouble beforehand.

ALAN TUDGE:

There was no trouble. I don’t expect there to be trouble from Tony Abbott staying on either. I think he can continue to provide a really valuable role. He is an intellect. He’ll be able to write good articles. He’ll be contributing to the public debate on matters which are important to him and important to many Australians.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Clare O’Neil if he does stick around he is going to prove that the Liberal Party is broad. That’s going to give presumably a broad base to pull from when they ask for people’s votes.

CLARE O’NEIL:

I’m not sure that Tony Abbott is staying in Parliament to show what a broad church the Liberal Party is. I don’t think he’s staying in so he can talk about transport issues in his local electorate which is what he suggested in his public statement.

I think he’s either thinking about returning to the Lodge or he’s in there to continue defending the legacy which he seeks to protect as Prime Minister.

I think both things are going to be incredibly damaging for the Coalition and not just the Coalition, but for the country overall. The last thing we need is more instability. We’ve got nine months to go until an
election and the proof is in the pudding with Tony Abbott, he stayed in Parliament and since then he’s been nothing but a troublesome headline for the Coalition.

RAFAEL EPSSTEIN:

Don’t we have to find a place for people? If you’re in your fifties and you get voted out as being PM, don’t we need to find a way to keep people like that in political life?

CLARE O’NEIL:

We may able to make better use of such people but I’m not sure that in Tony Abbott’s case that remaining a member of parliament is the most constructive thing for him to do.

The proof is in the pudding, he has done nothing but destabilise the Liberal Party and the leadership since he has been deposed from being Prime Minister.

ALAN TUDGE:

That’s absolute rubbish Clare. You know that.

CLARE O’NEIL:

It’s all over the papers.

ALAN TUDGE:

It’s rubbish Clare.

CLARE O’NEIL:

Look at how this is going to be reported for you tomorrow. I understand you have to come in and say this is great for diversity and he’s got a great contribution to make but all he’s going to do is pop out at inconvenient times and say things that are contrary to the views of the Prime Minister. That’s not good for you and it’s not good for the country.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Alan?

ALAN TUDGE:

I think he’s going to be a backbencher. He is now. He wants to run again for parliament and will continue to be a backbencher. That gives him platform to continue to articulate views that many Australians will share.

At the end of the day, he’s a committed member of the Coalition. More than anyone else, he wants to see the Coalition re-elected at the upcoming election. The last thing that Australia needs Clare, is for the Labor Party to be back in power and to continue the destruction that they wreaked on the Australian public over the six years from 2007 untill 2013. That’s what Tony Abbott wants to do. I think he has a lot to offer so I welcome him staying in the Parliament.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

We’ll see what it all looks like. We’ll discuss these issues including the GST as the year unfolds. Thanks so much for joining me Alan Tudge and Clare O’Neil. Have a great afternoon.

CLARE O’NEIL:

Thanks Raf, thanks Alan.

ALAN TUDGE:

Thanks Raf, thanks Clare.

[ENDS]