2GB Ben Fordham
E&OE
BEN FORDHAM:
Scott Morrison good afternoon.
MINISTER MORRISON:
G’day Ben, how are you?
FORDHAM:
Why are you laughing at the idea of you being a future leader?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Because we have got a great one as it is.
FORDHAM:
You are laughing at it though.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Mate I am focussed on what I need to focus on and you know that. It was a very kind introduction.
FORDHAM:
I will get to some of the Prime Minister’s woes in a moment. I want to talk about the challenge you have got. You have just been in Canberra I know you are supposed to be somewhere else.
MINISTER MORRISON:
We are supposed to be somewhere else at the moment over at the Mateship Trek which listeners may recall with Jason Clare and I were in here and we were chatting about that. They are literally on the landing site today, the mateship trek. I couldn’t go obviously because I have got this new responsibility and I saw them off on Sunday morning very early about 4 o’clock in the morning and Jason is there, Jim Molan is taking my place, Erin’s dad, Major General Molan and they are on the Gallipoli beach today.
FORDHAM:
So you had to pull out of that because of this new job?
MINISTER MORRISON:
That’s right, that’s right. I had the choice between not having the 25th anniversary trip with my wife, which I wanted to make it to 26 and so that wasn’t a hard decision to make from that perspective. But the great news is they have been raising a lot of money for Soldier On for the trek and if anyone wants to do that you can go to my Facebook page Scott Morrison MP, look it up and click on and support Soldier On it’s a great initiative.
FORDHAM:
So instead of doing that you have been in Canberra and you have been getting your head around this gigantic portfolio. I have been having a look today and these are just some I am cherry picking here – community services, mental health, emergency relief, families and children’s policy, services to reduce violence against women and children very important, financial counselling, gambling regulation, housing and homelessness, income management, income support to seniors, they are just some of the areas. How do you get your head around all of these things in one go?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well look you have got to talk to a lot of people and not just those in the bureaucracy but I have spent a lot of the week actually sitting down with stakeholder groups, those who are involved in running childcare centres, those who are involved in the ageing and disability sector, and listening to a lot of people, that is what you have got to do to get a good sense of it. It is a very important portfolio, it is more than one third of the Commonwealth budget, it is $150 billion worth of payments and I know Australians are very supportive of giving support to people who really need it and that is what I want to focus on but I also – those who want to get in the way and take the funds that would otherwise go to people who really need it well we need to make sure that is not happening.
FORDHAM:
Are you using some of the lessons that you learned as Immigration Minister becoming Immigration Minister, where you get to know everyone in the Department, you get to know the stakeholders and you try to understand where they are coming from and their roles and responsibilities. You clearly have excelled at that in Immigration. Have you used some of those lessons in this new portfolio?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Absolutely, you can’t achieve anything in government unless you get the people to come with you and that is particularly the case with your own Department. I have really spent a fair bit of time with my Department officials who do the work at the end of the day of implementing things. Same with Operation Sovereign Borders it wasn’t Tony Abbott and I out there on the water or anything like that it was the great people from the Customs and Border Protection Service and the Navy and others, it was the Immigration officers, they are the ones that do the work and they are the ones you have to lead and motivate and this job will be no different.
FORDHAM:
You do realise you are not going to be able to say look that is an on water issue anymore, you are not going to be able to say no I can’t answer those questions anymore because it is all operational secrecy. Or are you going to use that in this portfolio?
MINISTER MORRISON:
It is a different portfolio, it is a different set of challenges and I mean take one area like carers for example you have a lot of people listening to your programme this afternoon who have caring responsibilities.
FORDHAM:
Heaps.
MINISTER MORRISON:
One of the things we were talking today about is people who are caring may for many years find themselves not working for very good reason because they are supporting someone who they need to support. But that day will come when they will need to get back involved in life and the community and we want to make sure that we are able to keep their skills up over that period, and they are remaining engaged so that when that day comes they can get out there and re-join and the more we can keep people connected and get them involved whether it is in work and the community then the better.
FORDHAM:
Well why do we get the impression that you are going to be tougher than the bloke you have taken over from Kevin Andrews. I remember Kevin Andrews, he was wanting to hand out – wasn’t he handing out free marriage counselling advice to people, vouchers where you can go and patch up your relationship and things like that? Why do we get the impression that you are going to be a bit more ruthless than Kevin Andrews was in this portfolio?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well I don’t know, other than that people may have had that impression.
FORDHAM:
Is that your reputation?
MINISTER MORRISON:
It may well be my form but I think what my form really is, is just solving problems and getting things done and there is a myriad of issues that we have to address. Kevin – one of the things he did was do some stuff around the disability support pension to make sure that fair dinkum government doctors were the ones who were deciding who was going on to the DSP. Now I think that is really important reform and there have been other reforms that he has been able to bring through as well.
FORDHAM:
Let’s talk about the Disability Support Pension because when you go through the numbers here and they are staggering 800,000 people are on a Disability Support Pension so that is a $16 billion hit. Government modelling shows that Australia is on track to have more than one million people claiming the DSP within a few years and this is the one that blows me away every single week more than 2,000 people apply for the Disability Support Pension.
MINISTER MORRISON:
That is right and we have had a growth rate of around six per cent every year. That is the case when you look right across the welfare portfolio. The growth rate and expenditure and it is for a whole range of reasons, take the aged pension for example we are going into an ageing boom and that is the way I like to look at it.
FORDHAM:
We are going to live to 150 according to Joe Hockey.
MINISTER MORRISON:
I heard Joe say that the other day. Here is another fact by 2050 we are told there will be 50,000 centenarians in Australia. Today I think there is around about 3,500. So people will live longer, that is great and they are also going to live healthier longer and that is going to give Australia a lot of opportunities in the ageing services sector.
FORDHAM:
You say that Kevin Andrews already made some headway on the Disability Support Pension.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Yes, he did.
FORDHAM:
So what about the – have you got to go to a government doctor now do you or a government approved doctor to be able to prove that you are..
MINISTER MORRISON:
To get on to the DSP you do.
FORDHAM:
So are there less people getting on it now?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Yes, that is true there is less people getting on it now and what we have seen is that the growth in the size of the DSP has slowed down quite a lot and it has called in one of the terms I have heard a lot about in the last few weeks is the stock and flow. What we are addressing is the flow of people in and that is slowing right down but there is still a very big stock of people who are on the DSP as you say over 800,000. That is more than are on Newstart. There are more people on the DSP than are on Newstart.
FORDHAM:
What is the difference there as far as financially?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Off the top of my head I think it’s about 100 bucks difference in a fortnightly payment between Newstart and the pension. So there has always been that incentive for some who are looking to gain the system to get onto the DSP rather than get on to Newstart.
FORDHAM:
We know the vast majority of people on there have got serious issues, right?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Absolutely, there is no doubt.
FORDHAM:
But we know that people have gamed it because of that reason, they go hang on a moment there is an extra 100 bucks here I can prove that I have got a disability and I have met plenty of them. I have met people in my time working at Channel 9 where I – where I spent a lot of time meeting people and I would just have general conversations with people and say mate what do you do? Are you at uni, are you working and they say no mate I am on the Disability Support Pension. I’d say what’s wrong and sometimes I would get the impression based on what they are telling me that nothing is really wrong at all apart from you not wanting to get off your arse and work.
MINISTER MORRISON:
I want a fair go for people who are going to have a go and I think that is the Australian way and having a go means where people can work, where people can do what they can to support themselves then that needs to be the rule. Where people can’t I think Australians don’t blush at being able to give some people some fair dinkum support.
FORDHAM:
The National Disability Insurance Scheme is one of the – well I think a policy that Julia Gillard introduced as Prime Minister which..
MINISTER MORRISON:
We supported.
FORDHAM:
Which has almost universal support and everyone feels that if someone has a disability we need to be giving them a better quality of life and better opportunities out there and I have even just been talking to someone who works with us here whose sister falls under the scheme and he was just explaining to me the pressure that has been relieved on mum and dad because she has now been able to get her own accommodation in the same street so only a couple of hundred metres away from mum and dad in a unit, there is help with cooking meals, and all these other things. Now that is wonderful, it costs a hell of a lot of money and it is not funded right?
MINISTER MORRISON:
No, it is not. At its full operation which is several years down the track from now it will only be about 40 per cent funded from the levy and that is just the Commonwealth expenditure. So we are talking about $6-$7 billion a year that the Commonwealth is going to have to find to fund this. Now you are right we should fund it, we should support it, we do support it, because what I like about the NDIS is it puts the choices in the hands of the person with the disability and their families so they are making choices about how they can make their life better.
FORDHAM:
So your quest is to be able to save this Julia Gillard initiative.
MINISTER MORRISON:
This is my grail in many respects and to have a system that does that is what Australians want. Now that means you have got to do some heavy lifting of reform along the way to make sure the whole system is affordable and sustainable. It also means you have got to have a tough welfare cop on the beat and I don’t think people will be that surprised that that is an approach I will take but it is not the only approach I am going to take, you do that because you want the system to work.
FORDHAM:
We have the Social Services Minister, former Immigration Minister, he is with us in the studio. I have got to ask you about your boss Tony Abbott because he has had a pretty rough morning. He was on radio ion Melbourne I will play it a little later on, he was talking to Neil Mitchell. A Liberal voter called in and said ‘mate you are the worst salesman in the world’. That has got to hurt.
MINISTER MORRISON:
I have not seen the interview but I have heard about it. We have got a tough sales job because we are selling reforms often that people find very difficult but that doesn’t make the need to do them any less important. That is why, you know me, I am always out looking to get the message of what the government is trying to do to make Australia a better place. Look it is a tough job. That is the problem with hard jobs – I have another hard job now – the thing about them is they are hard. So I am out there supporting Tony to do that as is Joe and the whole team. The team is focused on this job that we have. People will commentate on our various communication abilities and that is fine, that is interesting but it is what we do that matters.
FORDHAM:
Just say that again because I spoke over you there at the end – people will comment on various…
MINISTER MORRISON:
People will make criticisms or whatever about our communications and all of those things but it is what we do as a government that matters. What we are doing as a government is trying to grow the economy, get the budget back on track, to deal with all these welfare issues I spoke about before and national security as we all know – and there is a situation, I am not privy to those things because I am no longer on the National Security Committee now. I mean these are the things we are focused on.
FORDHAM:
Communication is important though…
MINISTER MORRISON:
Of course.
FORDHAM:
And you say people will have their own observations and I have been saying for a long, long time and I am not just saying this because you are in the studio but I have said it dozens of times when you are not here but I have said that I believe Scott Morrison is the most effective communicator in Australian politics at state and federal and that is my belief. I think you are very, very good and even when someone is shaking the tree I mean you are sitting across from Sarah Ferguson or Leigh Sales on the 7.30 Report and they are shaking the tree you don’t tend to fall out of it where we see other people get flustered or they fumble or bumble a little bit. The Prime Minister almost kind of admitted this morning a little bit that it is not his strong suite. He said he does not like to skite were the words he used. In other words I am not kind of showing off too much I am just trying to get the job done. But there is a problem with it. My first show back this week I said don’t underestimate the problem Tony Abbott finds himself in at the moment. I have a lot of respect for Tony Abbott I think he is a very decent man but communication is not his strong suite. At the moment you guys desperately need to be able to communicate a message and it seems to be – and this is the really dangerous area – it seems to be falling on deaf ears at the moment and you know that once people stop listening, and I heard in one report last night I think it was Lane Calcutt on Nine News last night towards the end of this story a Liberal source said this ‘they believe they may have stopped listening’. I can remember the moment when they stopped listening to Kevin Rudd and I still remember when they stopped listening to Julia Gillard and when they stop listening you are dead.
MINISTER MORRISON:
It is our job collectively as a team to turn that around. I agree with you in terms of what you are saying about Tony’s humility. I have known Tony for a long time and he isn’t a bloke who skites. He is a bloke who is actually quite modest and humble. Whether it is the pollie pedal he does in aid of carers and things like that he is a very down to earth genuine bloke. He doesn’t see himself as the Barack Obama great orator of our time. You know what we have found out over there. We found out that didn’t necessarily translate into everything he said it would. You have people who can talk the leg off a chair but what you want is a government and people who are going to get things done. Because it doesn’t make the problems go away, the problems are really there and we really have to fix them.
FORDHAM:
That would be well and good if we were getting the problems fixed and getting the job done but we have had so much political capital that has been wasted on issues that have not eventuated. We have had all of these things – see we have heard for months and months on end about arguments to do with co-payments and Medicare rebates and all of these other things but in the end the Senate is not going to pass stuff. Whether it is higher education in the last few days there have been a lot of wasted opportunity and if people are hearing all of these things and thinking hang on none of this stuff has happened, it is not happening and therefore they stop believing what you are saying.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well more of it has happened than people think. I will give you an example. Of the $15 billion odd of welfare reforms that were going through the Senate – it is a modest amount but about 20%, about $3 billion of those actually went through. But I will say this – I said this last year when similar observations were being made – it is important to get policy right, it is also important to get politics right. If it is an area where we have not done as well as people had hoped it is in managing the politics but you know if you have to make your pick between the two the previous government they did pretty well on the politics for a real long time. Bob Carr as the State Premier of NSW did politics well for a really long time but if you get the politics wrong it is the country and the state that suffers. So we are focusing on getting the policy right and we have to work harder on getting the politics right.
FORDHAM:
As a mate of Tony Abbott’s do you sometimes feel like shaking him a little bit to go come on just give us a bit more energy, or give us a little bit more pizzazz?
MINISTER MORRISON:
I have never felt like that honestly. The most important thing when you talk to people is to be fair dinkum and authentic. You have got to be passionate about what you are involved in. I am and I know Tony is and you have to communicate that passion. People just don’t want to know you are solving a problem but you really want to solve it yourself too. It really matters to you. I have been very passionate about the areas I have been involved in. I know Tony is passionate about fixing the mess we inherited. I don’t think people can underestimate just how big that is. As the year has gone on and we are now into this next year it really is a big task but you know we are about it, we are on it and we will hope to win that support back.
FORDHAM:
I know you are not going to admit to this or confirm this but the truth is that some people in your party are worried about the fact that whether in a time like this where we do have confusion and you have a difficult Senate you have got Clive Palmer and all the other stuff whether Tony Abbott is up to the job of being able to give everyone else the confidence to go forward. I mean you do need a leader who is going to give everyone else – you spoke about that as far as Departments go whether it is Immigration or Social Services, you have to get people behind you. If the Captain isn’t really inspiring the troops I mean some of the troops get worried and some of the troops are worried at the moment, seriously worried.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Without being drawn on whether that is happening or not, to be honest, as you know, I have been having stakeholder meetings and meeting Department officials and getting across a new portfolio. I think that says a lot about what Tony’s team has been doing and that is his Cabinet and Ministry. We have Sussan Ley who has taken on a new portfolio in health and Sussan has been down there this week as well. I know she was meeting with the AMA this week. We are going about that job. You have to take your people with us. It is not just about the Prime Minister, the whole team has to do that. We all have to front up and get that done. That is what our backbenchers expect of us and I think that is what they will see from us.
FORDHAM:
Tony Abbott has laughed off the suggestion today there could be a leadership change between now and the next election. You have a TV camera pointing in your direction right now and so you have the opportunity to do the same.
MINISTER MORRISON:
I will join him in the mirth, I will join him in the mirth. Because we are focused on getting Labor’s problems fixed in government. That is what we promised we would do. That is what we are doing.
FORDHAM:
As we have seen last time around with the former government leadership changes didn’t necessarily solve the problems did they?
MINISTER MORRISON:
No it doesn’t. You have to focus on the thing and you have got to have a plan and when Bill Shorten turns up with a plan then maybe he can join the national debate. You have got to have more than a whinge to be involved in the national debate, you have got to have a plan and that bloke has not outlined anything. He has been Opposition Leader now for some time. I haven’t heard boo form the goose.
FORDHAM:
Hang on a moment I remember when you guys were in opposition as well there was a lot of keeping cards close to chests as well. Look at the clock though as well because…
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well let me take you up on that. When we said we would stop the boats I said how we would stop the boats. I said that and Tony said that within a month of taking on the portfolio. That is why I thought we built the case to do exactly what we have done. Haven’t heard it from Bill Shorten.
FORDHAM:
Ok and you don’t want to be leader one day?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Mate I am doing the job I am doing and I am doing it well I would hope and I would hope people see that in the new portfolio.
FORDHAM:
One day, we would all like to do something else one day wouldn’t we?
MINISTER MORRISON:
I know my wife would want me to do something else one day – spend more time with her and the kids in our wonderful Shire.
FORDHAM:
Ok.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Good on you mate.
FORDHAM:
Good to talk to you thank you very much. Good luck in the new job and also Scott Morrison’s Facebook page…
MINISTER MORRISON:
You can go to www.facebook.com/scottmorrison4cook Support Soldier On and Jason and the guys while they are over there in Gallipoli. You can support them so thanks.
FORDHAM:
Alright we will get Jason Clare on the phone at some point or Jim Molan so we can update it but I really appreciate you coming into the studio. Good man.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Thanks a lot Ben, good on you.