ABC RN Breakfast with Fran Kelly
E&OE
KELLY:
Minister when you took over this portfolio you said you’d be a tough cop on the welfare beat, is this what you had in mind, including the family home in the pension asset’s test?
MINISTER MORRISON:
There is no plan. Under no consideration was there any idea that we would include the family home in the asset tests for the pension. This story is a complete furphy.
KELLY:
In the story it says that you have had meetings where this has been discussed with a couple of seniors groups. We’ve spoken to seniors groups who say it has been discussed with you, has it been discussed?
MINISTER MORRISON:
People raise issues with me Fran but that doesn’t mean that this is a plan that is under consideration. There is a big difference. I meet with many groups Fran, you and I talk about issues on this programme, that doesn’t mean I agree with the points that you make to me. It’s simply part of a consultation process that I’ve been engaged in since I became the Minister late last year and I’ve met with many, many groups and they have raised those issues with me. But the idea that this Government would put the family home in the asset test for the pension is just not under consideration.
KELLY:
Why not? Should it be?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well, it’s not something we’re considering Fran. The issues that arise in this area I think are more about there is a big penalty at the moment for people who want to choose to sell the family home and to use income to support them as they age. We do have an ageing population and at the moment the system penalises people for doing that and I think that can be an issue that needs further consideration but the bottom line, Fran, is the only people who have ever put a tax on the family home is the Labor Party in NSW and I think Chris Bowen was working for the then NSW Labor Government when it was done. So that’s not something under consideration Fran.
KELLY:
To stay with the point you just made, that if people sell the family home to get access to some of the cash wrapped up in that asset as they age, they are penalised for that because that goes into their savings and then that affects their eligibility for the pension.
MINISTER MORRISON:
That’s right.
KELLY:
Isn’t that an argument for including the family home in the assets test to make it fairer?
MINISTER MORRISON:
I don’t agree with that proposition that you’ve put to me but I think there is an important discussion to be had around the ageing of our population, the healthy ageing of our population, I should say, and the way the system currently works to frankly penalise people who for their own reasons may wish to try and move into smaller accommodation and to be able to support themselves more as they grow older. These are things that I think are really positive. I think we have the opportunity to be going into an ageing boom in this country where services provided commercially to people as they age can be a whole new growth sector for business. We could be an export leader in this area around the world. Andrew Robb’s free-trade agreement with China is opening up the door particularly for aged care services but I think there are many other areas where we can be competitive. If people wish to free up their own capital as they get older the system currently penalises them for doing that.
KELLY:
So you’re suggesting the Government would consider ameliorating some of the current penalties in the system, that would cost the system more, aren’t we’re looking at the fact that the aged welfare system…
MINISTER MORRISON:
I don’t know how it would cost the system more Fran. I don’t know how you think it would cost the system more. But all I’m simply saying Fran is we’re engaged in a debate. That debate does not include, including the family home in the assets test for the pension full stop. To suggest otherwise, I think, is completely false and mischievous.
KELLY:
Well, the reason – I mean it hasn’t come out of nowhere. It was a recommendation under the national commission of audit that your Government –
MINISTER MORRISON:
But we’re not doing it Fran. We’re not doing it.
KELLY:
So you’re ruling it out right now?
MINISTER MORRISON:
I think I’ve been fairly clear on that point. I don’t think I could be clear.
KELLY:
What you said you’re not considering it, you said you won’t consider it.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Fran we are not putting the family home in the assets test for the pension. Is that clear enough?
KELLY:
That is clear, that is absolutely clear.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Thank you.
KELLY:
The intergenerational report is coming and one of your colleagues, Kelly O’Dwyer, has indicated that is going to be the point where a lot of, to quote her long-dated policy areas like the aged pension and superannuation will be considered, so the Government is going to be pointing out that the welfare bill is growing. The aged care bill is growing, the pension bill is growing. Something needs to be done. What is the Government going to consider to try and rein this in?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well Fran we already have a number of measures that are in the Senate which address these issues which still don’t have support and they are measures that remain there. They have not been taken off the table and we’ll continue to pursue those with the cross benchers and with the Labor Party if they’re interested in actually bringing a proposal to the table that they might want to fund. We’re still not seeing anything from the Labor Party in terms of how they would address the budget issues and the ageing of the population. We just have constant unfunded empathy being put out by the Labor Party. That doesn’t solve any problem. It might give Bill Shorten a few zingers in the press but other than that it doesn’t solve the problem. We’re focused on addressing this issue, the ageing of the population is not a death sentence for a country, it is an issue that can be a real opportunity for the country – if we approach it the right way, if we help people to be able to help themselves more as they grow older and to access the resources that they have available to them and I think that is a positive way to deal with this. The idea of sanctions in this area, which is what was suggested in today’s report, I don’t think is the way forward in this area and that’s what I’ve been consulting with the sector on as you’d expect me to do.
KELLY:
I would also expect that as a Cabinet Minister you’d be looking at this growing bill, you’d be looking at figures like the figures we see in the Australian newspaper today…
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well I am Fran.
KELLY:
…that show that multi-millionaire retirees are currently receiving government payments worth about $500 million a year. Now the intergenerational report will show that this pension bill is unsustainable, the Government’s addressed that in the past and you mentioned it again now. I mean isn’t it time to wind back the pension eligibility for people who have a lot of money? There’s a problem there, isn’t there?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well Fran you’re talking about situations where people are often cash poor and assets rich and this is what the NSW Labor Government found when they introduced the land tax on the family home there…
KELLY:
But what about couples who have financial assets of $1.3 million?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Fran if you want to ask me a question I am happy to answer it but you might want to give me more than two seconds to respond. What I am saying is all of these issues are real Fran and we’re working through the challenges of an ageing population but I don’t think going out there with a stick to pensioners is the way to do that. I think the way to do that is to ensure the right incentives are in place to help people make good decisions as they grow older and that includes staying in work Fran. I think it’s important that we encourage Australians to stay in work and to stay in work for as long as they can to support themselves and to not have to draw down on a pension or only access a part pension. I think that’s a good way for us to encourage people in these situations and the issue that has been flagged by the sector with me is not one that the Government is considering for the budget at all. I think that’s an important point to make.
KELLY:
So listening to you it is fair to say is it that you don’t think or the government doesn’t think the current asset and incomes test for the pension is too generous even though couples can have financial assets, financial assets, of up to $1.3 million before they lose the pension?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Fran you are talking about an enormously small percentage of cases and if you are looking at the growth in the bill on the aged pension, which is one of the fastest growing areas of the welfare system, then those sorts of issues do not make a dent frankly on the overall bill. You need to look at more structural issues that enable people to support themselves more, to work longer, to not draw down on the pension as soon or as long and they are the areas where I think you can really start to empower people as they grow older to have a better quality of life as they grow older with access to more resources by working longer and being able to draw on the assets that they have.
KELLY:
Is one of the areas where the government could make a dent looking at superannuation tax concessions? This is another area that is constantly referred to the government as suggesting it has got to get tougher there.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well I will leave those matters to the Treasurer. They do not come under my portfolio Fran. But we need to look obviously at all the areas the intergenerational report will raise again. This is an excellent report, it always is. I think it focuses the mind on the budget task that we have going out not just over the next four years but next 30 years. Yesterday, Labor’s alternative Treasurer didn’t think debt was anything more than rhetoric. Now I don’t think he thinks his mortgage is rhetoric and his repayments are rhetoric. They are very real just like the debt is real, just like the challenge is real and that is what we are trying to address. The Labor Party is in complete and utter denial.
KELLY:
It is quarter to 8 on Breakfast. Scott Morrison is the Social Services Minister in the Abbott Government. Minister you have had the social security portfolio just for a little while now but can you tell us whether the move announced in the last budget, the six month wait for the dole for young people, is that gone, is that dead and buried?
MINISTER MORRISON:
All of these issues remain in the Senate and on the table and I am engaging with all the crossbenchers about these issues and the point here is this – we need to do things that encourage people into work and get them to stay in work from an early age. That is the issue that we need to address. If crossbenchers and others have other suggestions about how this outcome can be achieved and we can do that consistent with what we need to do with the budget then I am all ears but the same rules apply to everyone else in this debate as applies to the government. If you want to solve the problems of getting young people into work these isn’t a money tree, there needs to be the right incentives and the disincentives as well for behaviour you don’t want to encourage, to solve the problem.
KELLY:
Do you think the disincentive is too tough?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well what I know is that is the measure we have on the table and that measure remains on the table unless there is a better way forward that achieves the goals of the government within the fiscal settings we have and deals with the problem and the problem is we have declining rates of labour force participation particularly for males aged under 25. We are assigning a generation of young men to the dole and to welfare. Now I don’t think that is a good outcome and if people have better ideas they should bring them but they have got to fund them. You can’t just come with fanciful ideas that aren’t funded. You have got to come with funding.
KELLY:
Do you have a better idea or do you think the best idea is still that six month wait for the dole?
MINISTER MORRISON:
I think I have made it clear that option, that policy remains on the table, it remains in the Senate, it remain in the legislation and I will work through those issues with the crossbenchers and if people want to participate in that debate I welcome it but the same rules apply to them as applies to the government. You have got to bring forward funded proposals.
KELLY:
Just finally Minister what did you make of Malcolm Turnbull on Q&A last night, were you impressed with his performance?
MINISTER MORRISON:
Well Malcolm is always an entertaining character on Q&A, must be why they invite him back on so much.
KELLY:
Were you impressed by his performance?
MINISTER MORRISON:
I am always impressed by Malcolm’s performance, he is a highly intelligent, highly able person who is a strong part of the Abbott Government team that is dealing with the problems that Labor left behind – problems that don’t go away in 18 months and the government needs to press on because we need to fix the problems that we inherited form Labor. Those problems are not rhetoric. The debt is not rhetoric, the debt is real and is growing and will continue to grow unless we can get on top of the spending recklessness that we inherited from the previous government.
KELLY:
Scott Morrison thank you very much for joining us.
MINISTER MORRISON:
Thanks Fran.