ABC AM
E&OE
CHRIS UHLMANN:
Kevin Andrews is the Social Services Minister.
Kevin Andrews, how many people do you believe are on disability pensions that shouldn’t be getting them?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
Well everybody who’s currently on the disability pension by definition should be getting it; that’s not the issue here. There’s about 830,000 people on the DSP (Disability Support Pension) and they’ve all obviously qualified; there were changes made by the previous government to tighten the eligibility and that led to a drop in the number of people going on to it, but we still have more than 1,000 people a week going onto the DSP.
CHRIS UHLMANN:
But many more you think than should be on it really?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
Well 2,500 people roughly a week apply to go on it. The real issue here is that, for decades now, the disability pension has been essentially a set and forget payment. That is that, even though some of the people on the DSP may have a partial capacity to do some work, that’s never really been explored with them.
For under 35s there is a requirement to have a participation plan, but that’s never been forced or it’s never been required to follow through.
CHRIS UHLMANN:
So under what’s proposed if you have a severe disability that might be episodic, but not permanent, you could lose your pension is that correct?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
What Mr McClure has suggested is a simpler architecture in which you have four main payments: a tiered working age payment, secondly, a disability support for people with no capacity to work, thirdly, a child payment structure which would incorporate some of the payments and then fourthly the age pension.
CHRIS UHLMANN:
But you want people to be working if they can work, but what about the nature of their disability. What if it was severe but not permanent?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
Well we know one of the things which is occurring which is an increase in the number of people on the DSP who have physiological related illness or ailments. Some of those ailments are episodic in nature; that means that there are occasions when people are capable of contributing in terms of working, but there are other occasions when they’re not and currently the system doesn’t really take into account that development.
CHRIS UHLMANN:
How do you get a job though if that’s your form of disability?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
Well that’s part of the challenge and one of the pillars that Mr McClure has put forward is engaging with employers.
So this is not just about, you know, some sense, as been suggested by critics, of pushing people of welfare, this is about recognising that the best form of welfare is work, but that can be difficult for people and we have to design a better system.
CHRIS UHLMANN:
But you would realise that a lot of employers would baulk at giving that kind of person a job?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
That may be true, but, then again, there are a lot of employers who do take on disabled people and there is indication that many people with disabilities are very good workers. So, that’s a challenge for us, but there’s also a challenge in terms of the aging population. We know that there’s going to be a continual contraction in the growth of the workforce over the next 10 years and employers have really got to look at where they’re going to find their workforce in the future.
CHRIS UHLMANN:
Now this report says that you should reduce the gap between pensions and allowances like Newstart which means you could either increase the dole or reduce pensions; which one would you choose?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
Well it’s not an either all like that; it’s a matter of what is a new system to put in place. We’re talking about the future; we’re talking about a medium term in terms of these changes so that we do meet the challenges of the aging of the population and sustainability of the welfare system. So, I’m not going to get into a sort of debate about an either all about the existing situation, we’re really looking at can you have a new structure in place?
CHRIS UHLMANN:
If you simplify the system and reduce its cost, that would open up some space to increase Newstart or whatever payment replaces it. Will you do that?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
Well one of the suggestions from the reference group headed by Mr McClure is to have a tier working age payment. If you just take Newstart at the present time, we know that not everybody who goes on Newstart is part of the homogenous group. About half of the people who go on to Newstart use it for a short period of time and have got a job within about six months or so.
But then there’s another group of people who stay on it for a longer period of time. This is why I’m attracted to the New Zealand model because it tries to differentiate between people within different cohorts and then develop the response you need, the investment you need so they get on a trajectory of work rather than a trajectory of welfare.
CHRIS UHLMANN:
Some disability and welfare advocates are really alarmed that this report says that reform of disability support needs to take into account the development of a National Disability Insurance Scheme (NDIS). Now they say those two things are completely separate, that the NDIS provides treatment and care not money for the cost of living. Can you rule out linking the two?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
Well, it’s true that the NDIS provides treatment and care and that the disability support pension is related if you like to income; that’s absolutely true. But, the two things are occurring at the same time; over the next few years, the NDIS will be rolled out and what we’re hoping is over the next few years we can find a more efficient, simpler, basically more user friendly approach to welfare than we’ve got, rather than the sort of birds nest of ad hoc arrangements sort of been made over the years.
CHRIS UHLMANN:
So cost of living and care will be linked?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
No, no I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is that these two things are happening at the same time. I think, rather than jumping to conclusions, people should engage in the conversation. We’re now inviting them to engage in over the next six weeks; there’ll be an opportunity to participate, to make submissions to be part of round tables, to be part of a conversation about how we make sure we take into account whatever concerns people have and I invite them to get involved in the process.
CHRIS UHLMANN:
Is six weeks enough time for that kind of process, given it took you so long to deliver this report which was expected before Easter?
MINISTER ANDREWS:
Look, most of the issues in this report have been well known; they’ve been traversed by the Henry Review, by the Harmer Review, by other bodies that have looked into this.
So, in a sense what Mr McClure has done, and there was some consultation with about 30 of the major groups, is brought together the major issues and now put them out in the discussion paper.
As I’ve said, most of this has been known for not just a few months, but indeed for some years now and people I think are able to make a valid and useful contribution in the next six weeks.
CHRIS UHLMANN:
Kevin Andrews thank you.
MINISTER ANDREWS:
My pleasure.
CHRIS UHLMANN:
The Social Services Minister, Kevin Andrews.