Student Demonstrations, Climate Change Authority, Huawei, National Security
E&OE
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Joining me in the studio for Fight Club is Mark Dreyfus, he is the shadow Attorney-General. Joining us, I believe from Perth on the telephone, Kevin Andrews, the Minister for Social Services.
Kevin, good afternoon.
KEVIN ANDREWS
I’m in very hot, sunny Perth.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Okay, well that’ll suit us for climate change.
And Mark Dreyfus, thank you for coming in.
MARK DREYFUS
Good to be with you Raf. Hello Kevin.
KEVIN ANDREWS
Hello, Mark.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Important question first, did either of you study – did either of you pursue gender studies at university. Kevin Andrews?
KEVIN ANDREWS
No, and I heard your intro Raf, and I have to disappoint you and say that I was at university in the 1970s, not the 1980s.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Okay. Did you go to a student demonstration at all? Vietnam march, something like that?
KEVIN ANDREWS
I actually – I didn’t march, I actually observed a couple. I think I was there at the end of the Vietnam War demonstrations, about when I was in first year at university.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Right. Can I ask what side of the cause you were on?
KEVIN ANDREWS
I was just an observer to be honest.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Okay. You weren’t radically politicised at that stage?
KEVIN ANDREWS
I wasn’t radically politicised. And I don’t think I’m radically politicised now either.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Oh, okay, well I’m sure people will disagree.
Mark Dreyfus, gender studies at university?
MARK DREYFUS
I’m not sure that it was offered when I was at university.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Oh rubbish, it must have been. Seventies? It wasn’t offered?
MARK DREYFUS
Oh, I think the 70s, it might have just been starting. But I did attend a few demonstrations, unlike Kevin.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Did you? So you were – what were they for, Mark?
MARK DREYFUS
A range of things right at the tail end, as Kevin says, of the anti-Vietnam War…
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Oh, okay.
MARK DREYFUS
…demonstrations and….
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Uranium mining or something?
MARK DREYFUS
Yes, concern about uranium mining in the late 70s, ’77, ’78, with the Fraser Government.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Okay, there you go. We’re talking about that, of course, because of the demonstration in the city. I won’t ask them whether or not it was a wise move for the students to, in some way, encounter Joe Hockey, the Treasurer.
Kevin Andrews, if we can kick off with the report today from the Climate Change Authority. It’s a creation of the ALP when they were in government, but they’ve put out a report, they haven’t been phased out yet. I’m curious, though, about the general attitude of the Coalition towards climate change. My understanding of the legislation you want Labor to pass is that there is no legally mandated five per cent emissions cut by 2020. Is that okay, do you think, to not actually have that as law, regardless of your approach?
KEVIN ANDREWS
Well, our approach is clear and Tony Abbott said it, Greg Hunt said it over and over again, that we’re committed to the bipartisan target of five per cent as the government is and we will continue to do that. The difference about this between the political parties is the method by which that is achieved. We believe direct action is the appropriate approach.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
And I’m happy to talk about direct action but if you – if it’s policy, and I – Greg Hunt’s told it to me many times, why not make it law?
KEVIN ANDREWS
Look, it’s a matter, in the end of the day, as to whether or not you achieve it and whether it’s a law or whether it’s a policy or whether it’s a program, whatever it is, there are various things which are pursued by legislation, by regulation, by programs. It doesn’t really matter what the [indistinct] is and will be judged against is whether or not we achieved the five per cent target.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Sounds like you doubt you’ll reach the target if you don’t want to put it into law, though.
KEVIN ANDREWS
Oh no, I don’t doubt that. I don’t believe we doubt it. We just are going about it in a particular way and as I said, the Australian people will have the opportunity to judge us on whether or not we achieve that outcome. If we do, well, then we should get a tick from them. If they don’t, they can be rightly critical.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Mark Dreyfus, does the ALP actually have a solid position on voting against a carbon tax? Because there seems to be various reports about what the ALP’s going to do.
MARK DREYFUS
We’ve got a very clear position, we took it to the election, which is that we say that we should move from the fixed price to a full admissions trading scheme from 1 July next year and that’s what we were prepared to do. We’re still prepared to do that. We’ve got a situation here where we’ve got a government that is, to my mind, grossly irresponsibly putting forward no real proposal as to how they’re going to meet Australia’s emissions cuts.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Can I just – there is no circumstance in which you would vote to kill the carbon tax – terminate the carbon tax, in Kevin Rudd’s words – unless it’s replaced by a floating price. Is that right? There is no circumstance in which you would vote with the Coalition to terminate the fixed price?
MARK DREYFUS
No, we’ve made our position very clear, which is that we say that there needs to be a price on carbon, an emissions trading scheme. We’ve got a system that’s actually working. We’ve gone to a lot of trouble to bring it in. We can end the fixed price from 1 July. That’s a matter for the government. We think the government should do that and that would satisfy their desire, which they’ve repeated a thousand times, to end the carbon tax.
What’s of more concern is that we’ve had the Climate Change Authority today suggest that five per cent is too low, that we should be moving to a 15 or 25 per cent cut by 2020, that that’s what is need to keep us in step with other countries. It’s a very, very thorough report by this authority, which is, of course, headed by Bernie Fraser, former governor of the Reserve Bank. It’s got another current Reserve Bank board member on it, Heather Ridout, and a range of other eminent people. What they’ve said is that the target needs to be raised and they’ve said that the rest of the world is acting.
And it’s a great shame, but perhaps reflected of this government’s attitude, that this very authority is to be abolished.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Look, 1300222774. The Climate Change Authority is going to be abolished. I wonder what you make of their suggestion that we need to aim for more than a five per cent reduction.
Kevin Andrews, I’m sure you’ve seen at least some of these reports. The authority thinks we need a target of 15 per cent. Are they right?
KEVIN ANDREWS
Well, our view’s been clear and that is we’re committed to five per cent, as was, and I believe still is, the Labor Party. We’ll maintain that. That’s what we promised to do, that’s what we took to the election. If mandate theory means anything, we’ve got a mandate in relation to abolishing the carbon tax and the commitment to achieving the five per cent target. [Indistinct]…
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
[Interrupts] But if your policy is for a 25 per cent reduction, if the rest of the world gets tougher – I mean, that’s – you know, that’s my – your policy, my words, but if you are up for a 25 per cent cut, if the rest of the world gets tougher, surely you need to state that your aspiration, your aim, is to go beyond five per cent. I mean, you’re agreeing – your policy agrees with what the climate change authority is calling for, doesn’t it?
KEVIN ANDREWS
Well, we took a very clear number, five per cent, to the election. That’s clear in the minds of Australians what we stand for. You know, there’s a big if about the rest of the world. We don’t see most of the rest of the world moving in this regard, we don’t see the biggest polluters in the world actually taking action, and we’ve got to balance this up [indistinct]…
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
[Interrupts] Well, the Climate Change Authority says the biggest polluters are acting.
KEVIN ANDREWS
Well, that’s something which I think is very arguable, as to whether or not they’re doing that and whether or not it’s leading to real reductions. But our position’s clear, it’s five per cent.
MARK DREYFUS
What Kevin’s just said is reflective of the attitude of this government. The climate – I suggest he reads this authority’s report who make it very clear that the rest of the world is acting. Again, we’ve just heard from Kevin continued the same rhetoric as before that the rest of the world isn’t acting. Now, that’s just not true and the climate change authority in its report today makes that clear. So perhaps its…
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
But the biggest – the biggest polluters, China, India, the United States, they’re not making drastic reductions in their emissions. Why should we?
MARK DREYFUS
China is moving to emissions trading schemes.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
But they are pilot schemes. They aren’t going to – regardless of the mechanism, they are not going to lead to drastic reductions in the next five or seven years, are they?
KEVIN ANDREWS
And they’re building new coal fired power stations every second week.
MARK DREYFUS
They are…
KEVIN ANDREWS
I mean, you know, let’s be realistic.
MARK DREYFUS
We’ve got the difference between China putting in no controls at all, China not caring, and China actually making very serious attempts, increasingly serious attempts, to reduce their carbon emissions. That’s why our government was working with the government of China to introduce emissions trading schemes in – and you’ve mentioned it being a pilot scheme, but Guangdong Province is 150 million people.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
I know, it’s a…
MARK DREYFUS
It’s a pretty big pilot.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Look, well, Kevin Andrews, let me read you a part of the report. It says – this is from the Climate Change Authority – there’s 99 countries, including Australia’s major trading partners and neighbours, covering over 80 per cent of global emissions and over 90 per cent of the world’s economic output have 2020 emissions reduction pledges. So they clearly are of the view that the vast majority of the world is taking significant action and we need to do more. Are they wrong?
KEVIN ANDREWS
Well, I think you’ll find that there’s a very mixed outcome in terms of what the rest of the world is doing. I mean, Mark just talked about Guangdong as a pilot project in China. That’s not the whole of China. We know that, as I said, they’re building more coal fired power stations, so that’s a very mixed situation so far as China is concerned. But, you know, we’ve put a target in place. We took it to the Australian people. They voted for us on that and that’s what we’ll enact.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Kevin Andrews, I do want to ask because I suspect a lot of the commentary around Greg Hunt and the Wikipedia comments last week comes from a suspicion from the Coalition’s critics that you are not believers in the science. Are you a general – is your general view that, say, that IPCC has kind of, you know, got the science right?
KEVIN ANDREWS
Well, our view is that climate change is real and we’ve always said that and Greg Hunt has said that. I think that…
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
But do you think that? Do you think the IPCC have basically got it right?
KEVIN ANDREWS
Well, I think as time – I think that climate change is occurring. There’s a variety of reasons prophet as to why that is occurring. The IPCC has put forward views in relation to that, but we also know…
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Do you agree with what the – I mean, the IPCC’s essential argument – look, I don’t think the IPCC backs either the ALP or the Coalition’s approach. What I’m interested to know from you is do you believe that man made – what’s the word for it – humanity’s having a huge impact on the climate. Do you think that’s happening or not?
KEVIN ANDREWS
Look, my personal opinion doesn’t really matter match. We’ve got a government policy…
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
It does. You’re in cabinet.
KEVIN ANDREWS
Well, we have a government policy in relation to that and we’re going to commit [indistinct]…
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Well, Greg Hunt’s fairly, you know, fairly firm on the science. I don’t – I’m not sure that you’re dissenting in any way. Do you – are you not convinced that human beings are contributing in a significant way to climate change?
KEVIN ANDREWS
Well, I said we think climate change is real. There’s a variety of contributing factors to that. And there are a range of scientific opinions. The IPCC has a scientific opinion about this, but climate change is real and we believe that…
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
It’s not a scientific opinion, though, it’s sort of 95 per cent of the world’s climate scientists, isn’t it? Something like that.
KEVIN ANDREWS
Well, look, I’m not a scientist, Raf, and I’ll – you know, my sense is that yes, there’s climate change, which is real, but the government has accepted that climate change is real. We’ve put in place a target. We’ll obviously continue to monitor what happens around the world.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Sure.
KEVIN ANDREWS
Whether other countries do things or not. But that’s our situation at the moment.
[Unrelated items – callers]
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
No no, that’s okay. Look, I want to ask you both – Kevin Andrews, I’m not sure this is your portfolio, but we mentioned the Chinese company Huawei in the last hour. It now seems, despite speculation in the press, that they will have no role building telecommunications infrastructure in this country.
The Treasurer Joe Hockey was on Sky TV last night, and made it very clear, have a listen.
INTERVIEWER
There’s some suggestion of a softening in the approach to the Huawei investments in our NBN. Can you see any way that Huawei would be allowed to invest in our NBN project?
JOE HOCKEY
No.
INTERVIEWER
Well that’s a pretty straightforward answer, thanks very much for joining us Joe.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
A very straightforward answer.
Kevin Andrews, are you comfortable with that? People like Andrew Robb seem to be opening the door to Huawei, are you comfortable trusting ASIO on this one?
KEVIN ANDREWS
Look, when it comes to matters of national security then obviously we have to trust the security agencies. But Joe made it – the Treasurer made it quite clear, as did the Attorney-General George Brandis, our situation on that is there’s no changes planned, that the status quo in relation to this company remains the case.
So I don’t think that can be any clear than Joe’s one-word answer.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Does it mean Alexander Downer’s lobbying efforts are sort of not effective? He was lobbying for them, he’s – I think he’s on the board, isn’t he, here in Australia?
KEVIN ANDREWS
Well, as you said, it’s not in my portfolio Raf, so Alexander hasn’t been lobbying me in relation to it.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Okay.
KEVIN ANDREWS
But, you know, we’ve made a decision, obviously informed by the advice of the national security agencies, and that’s clear.
[Unrelated items – callers]
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Look, you’ve both been inside the national security tent, so I do want to ask you a question. There’s a woman called Dianne Feinstein – Democrat, she is the chair of the US Senate’s Intelligence Committee. Up until even 10 days ago she was defended the National Security Agency against the revelations from Edward Snowden, the former contractor.
I want to start with you Kevin Andrews – even Dianne Feinstein now says they need to review what America’s surveillance agencies have done, that the people like her in the Senate, who are supposed to be the watchdog, were not told what was going on. Do we need to reassess what we give to America, and what Australia’s agencies do, Kevin Andrews?
KEVIN ANDREWS
Well, that’s a matter, I believe, for the National Security Committee of Cabinet under whoever’s in Government.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Mm.
KEVIN ANDREWS
We entrust to Cabinet to oversight those agencies through the National Security Committee. To the extent that I had any involvement with that, and mine was only marginal when I was the Immigration Minister.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Mm.
KEVIN ANDREWS
Then – now I thought we got fairly frank advice about what was going on. Now I can’t comment on the situation in the US and what’s happening there…
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
[Interrupts] Can I ask you for a personal reflection then? Are you concerned by any of the reports? I don’t know how closely you’ve read them, but are you concerned by any of the revelations as a result of what Edward Snowden’s told the media?
KEVIN ANDREWS
Look I haven’t read those reports, I’ve been too busy in my own portfolio, Rafael.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Okay.
KEVIN ANDREWS
But, as a general proposition, there needs to be a proper governmental oversight of security agencies, whether it’s in Australia or the United States. Now, as I said, I can’t speak for the United States. I’d be reasonably confident that what happens in Australia is subject to appropriate oversight by the National Security Committee as to what happens in this country.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Mark Dreyfus? Have any of the revelations concerned you? I mean I find it significant as a journalist that someone like Dianne Feinstein – I mean, she is a surveillance and intelligence agency defender. She’s concerned. Are you?
MARK DREYFUS
Well I think we have to put this in context. There’s a debate now raging in the United Kingdom, there’s a debate raging in the US about…
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
[indistinct] debate here.
MARK DREYFUS
Well, no. And the debate is about what the safeguards should be. The debate is about what are the appropriate checks and balances. I welcome such a debate occurring in Australia, I think it’s very healthy.
But people should have that debate against the background that intelligence collection is important, it’s an important activity for democracies to protect ourselves…
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Sure.
MARK DREYFUS
…against the threats that are out there. And so that’s my starting point. But, if there…
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
So why is it that none of the MPs on the one committee that does oversight our intelligence, are ever involved in the debate. Why are they never outspoken about these issues?
MARK DREYFUS
Well I can’t comment on that. We’ve got a – I don’t actually know why the members of the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security don’t speak out. I think you’ll find Michael Danby, who is a member of that committee, has spoken out from time to time.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Mm.
MARK DREYFUS
Ah, we’ve got several checks and balances. As Attorney-General I was one of the checks and balances, I signed the warrants for ASIO’s interception…
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Every time there’s a phone tapped?
MARK DREYFUS
That’s right, for ASIO’s interception activities. We have an Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security, we have a Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security, and we have – as Kevin’s just been talking about – a National Security Committee of Cabinet, on which I sat for some time.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
And one day Mark’s going to sit down and tell me everything that went on in those meetings.
We need to go. Thank you very much for your time Mark Dreyfus, thank you for coming in.
MARK DREYFUS
Thanks Raf. Thanks Kevin.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Mark Dreyfus is the Shadow Attorney-General. Kevin Andrews is the Minister for Social Services, thank you for joining us from Perth Mr Andrews.
KEVIN ANDREWS
Thanks Raf.
RAFAEL EPSTEIN
Kevin Andrews there.
[ENDS]